Episode 26 of “What is Innovation?” is here! Jared talks with Raj De Datta, the Co-Founder and CEO of Bloomreach, the leading digital experience platform for e-commerce that powers brands representing 25% of retail e-commerce in the US and the UK. Raj shares about the seeker mindset and creating culture from the top-down in tech-forward business industries backed by years of working and investments as an entrepreneur.
Raj De Datta, Co-Founder and CEO of Bloomreach, talks on seeker mindset and creating culture in tech-forward business industries.
More about our guest:
Raj De Datta is the Co-Founder and CEO of Bloomreach, the leading digital experience platform for e-commerce that powers brands representing 25% of retail e-commerce in the US and the UK. A multiple-time entrepreneur, before launching Bloomreach, he was entrepreneur-in-residence at Mohr-Davidow Ventures, served as Cisco’s director of product marketing, and was on the founding team of telecom company FirstMark Communications. He also worked in technology investment banking at Lazard Freres. Raj serves on the Council for Player Development for the US Tennis Association, as a Founder Partner at seed-stage venture capital firm Founder Collective and an individual investor in over 20 Silicon Valley start-ups. He holds a BS in Electrical Engineering with a certificate in Public Policy and International affairs from Princeton University and an MBA with distinction from Harvard Business School.
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Episode Guide:
2:13 - What is Innovation
3:33 - Working in labs
5:07 - Technical problem definition vs Consumer back approach
5:33 - Bloomreach
6:42 - Creating Culture from the top-down
8:09 - Consumer Side culture role-modeling
10:24 - Seeker mindset, To-do lists, and Uber
12:27 - Technology: Solving the seeker's problems
13:59 - Tech-forward business industries
15:34 - Solving for reassurance vs solving for information
16:31 - What isn't innovation
17:42 - Creating Cross-functional innovation teams
20:08 - "Product Manager" job titles
22:24 - Incorporating hobbies: Tennis
26:35 - Shaping career through innovation
28:03 - Advice to innovators
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OUTLAST Consulting offers professional development and strategic advisory services in the areas of innovation and diversity management.
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Jared Simmons 00:05
Hello, and welcome to what is innovation. The podcast that explores the reality of a word that is in danger of losing its meaning altogether. This podcast is produced by Outlast consulting, LLC, a boutique consultancy that helps companies use innovation principles to solve their toughest business problems. I'm your host, Jared Simmons, and I'm so excited to have Raj data. Right the data is the co founder and CEO of bloomreach, the leading digital experience platform for e commerce that powers brands representing 25% of retail e commerce in the US and the UK. Before launching bloomreach he was entrepreneur in residence at more Davidow ventures he served as Cisco's Director of Product Marketing and was on the founding team of telecom company first mark communications. He also worked in technology investment banking at Lazard Freres Raj serves on the council for player development for the US Tennis Association, as a founder partner at seed stage venture capital firm founder collective, and is an individual investor in over 20, Silicon Valley startups. He holds a BS in electrical engineering with a certificate in public policy and International Affairs from Princeton University and an MBA with distinction from Harvard Business School. Ross, thank you so much for joining us. Oh, it's great to be with you, Jared. Yeah, I'm really excited about the conversation. I love talking to fellow engineers, chemical engineer who had to take circuits, so that that gave me all the respect that you know, in the world for electrical engineers. Well, I
01:41
hope you didn't solder your hands. The way I did in electrical engineering?
Jared Simmons 01:46
Oh, my goodness, yeah. No, I did. I wasn't trusted with that they kept us non non Ws off in the corner and didn't let us play with things like that. So I love the fact that you're an engineer, and that, you know, your public policy, experience, certificate and, you know, mindset. So I'm looking forward to, to hearing your thoughts on innovation. Absolutely. So why don't we dive right in? In your mind, what is innovation?
02:16
Yeah, innovation, to me is solving problems that matter for people in different ways. So I think I think very often people think of innovation in that mindset of Edison, and, you know, coming up with a lightbulb moment and inventing some incredible new thing. Right. But I think innovation actually start swith really understanding what problem is worth solving for people that actually moves the needle on their life in some way. Right? And then finding creative solutions
Jared Simmons 02:49
to those problems, right. So it's not the solution itself that makes something innovative. That's right, it's got to have a almost an altruistic or at least some sort of value that to society, at least
03:01
some sort of value. Yeah. And look to society, the big statement, at least some value to a customer, to a user, to to the world, it could be any one of those axes. Got it. Got it, but someone has to find value in it.
Jared Simmons 03:18
That's right. Understood. Yeah. I mean, labs are full of interesting, cool, different novel inventions. But to your point, there's a gap between that, and it actually becoming innovation.
03:33
Yeah, you know, I actually spent a summer at one of the most famous labs, Xerox PARC. Oh, wow. And I spent a bunch of time at at&t Bell Labs in New Jersey. So I've seen these labs, where just incredible technology emerges, right. And what I found is it's much harder to commercialize innovative tech, than it is to start the other way around, and start with the problem definition, and then creatively solve the problem with tech.
Jared Simmons 04:06
Right, right. I love that framing. Because, you know, Xerox PARC, if I'm not mistaken, is that where's the like the mouse? And yes, right. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Oh, I wonder how long it took for the jobs or wasn't the ACA, whoever to find that mouse? You know, that someone probably created that, no doubt, years and years before before someone said, here's what that could be useful for? Here's how that could be applied to solve a problem. That is exactly right. I love the way you think about that. So in that context, I can imagine a world and you know, you and I are engineers. We grew up a college with engineers and you know, know how that mindset works. We were taught to solve problems and technical problems are problems. Right. So it's easy. I think it could be easy for technologists to say, Well, I'm solving a problem. I've figured out how to make this thing a third of the size that it was before, or I've made it five times faster. And so how have you seen tech founders and folks in the tech community, so avoid that problem definition, the technical problem definition, stopping at the technical problem definition instead of kind of the consumer back or problem back approach you're talking about?
05:22
Yeah, you know, I think what I've found over the years, having worked with some of the best engineers around is they do want to solve problems that matter, right. And so they're always pushing me, as I'm the founder of a company called bloomreach. Right? And we've got, I don't know, 180 people in r&d. And those people are among the most inquisitive, folks, not just about the technical problem. But why this problem would be worth solving in the first place, right? And so when I think is you can create a culture of why, where the first question people ask is why? before they go, you know, their boss comes and tells him to do something. They ask why, right? A customer says, can you build this? Your question is why? a product manager defines a spec, your question is why. And so the why mindset is a cultural attribute that I believe can be created within organizations. And in fact, it's a big part of the thinking behind my book, the digital seeker, which is that even in customer centric technology, very often people want to ask their customers, why they might be interested in their products?
Jared Simmons 06:35
Sure, it's such a powerful question. And I would imagine, so that you kind of highlighted two aspects of it. The first I want to talk about the first aspect quickly, creating a culture, you know, you said, 180, folks in r&d in your organization? How do you create a culture that is resilient to Why? Because I know that it's easy for antibodies to kind of get built up to, you know, hate? Because I said so? Or because that's what the consumer wants? Or what what have you? Have you been able to keep a culture that can absorb being asked why over and over again?
07:09
Yeah, you know, I mean, I think you do it, by demonstrating from the top down. That's how we think about it. So I'll give you an example. Today, we had a town hall meeting. And a lot of the questions we answered, were in a super non defensive way, asking the hard questions around why we're doing something or why we're doing a and b, or something of that type. And finding that those questions are often on the minds of people. And so if you demonstrate that culture, you can create a pattern where people have permission to ask each other the same question.
Jared Simmons 07:44
Right, right. I think role modeling from the top down, I agree with you, that's the only way to make that part of the culture. Because it's not natural. It's not intuitive for hierarchical organization, I think without some sort of role modeling, to really be able to, to do that. That's right. The why on the on the customer side, how do you solve that? I know you talked about your book kind of talks about that a bit. But can you tell me a bit more about the consumer side of why?
08:13
Absolutely. So having built this company, bloomreach, over 10 plus years, we're now powering almost a quarter of e commerce in the US and the UK. Wow. So you know, every major brand that you've heard of, you know, the gap, or William Sonoma, or some of the Walmart properties, or even many of them use bloomreach to power their e commerce, environments. And so people would ask me, what makes the winners win? And what makes the losers lose in digital? Right? And, and through my investing, and through bloomreach? I started thinking about that question. And this book is really an answer to that question. And the interesting thing is, if I were to summarize that answer, it's really that great digital experiences are not built for the customer. Right? They're built for the seeker. And so who is the seeker? Well, the seeker is actually the why behind the customer. And what I mean by that is, imagine you're organizing a family vacation, you're gonna go out and you're gonna say, Well, I need I need to do some research. I need to look at some reviews, a plane ticket, I need a car rental, I need a hotel. And so you're a customer of a hotel company, a rental company, a airline and another 15 companies, right? When you're actually a seeker of a memorable family vacation. And so, the winners in digital build for the seeker, not the customer. And in order to figure out what your customers ekey you got to ask a lot of why's I see I see. So you're so the the fact that you are a customer is a byproduct of the Have the seeking exactly the illusion of the bigger need, the bigger need, the bigger outcome you're looking to achieve. And the fact that so many digital experiences are built for customers, is why we all have endless digital to do lists. Hmm, I have to go do this. And I have to go do this. And it's all on the web.
Jared Simmons 10:21
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. How does that how does the seeker mindset affect the to do list? What happens when it when companies build around the seeker mindset?
10:31
Well, let's, let's use some examples, right? If you take a company like Uber, which I would say is built for the seeker because the seeker needed, I want to get from point A to point B, in a predictable way, at a predictable price. What happened in a pre Uber world, I had to go figure out what time of day, I should leave, how long that would take, I go look, use mapping software for that. Right? Then I would go try to hail a taxi, I walk around and not have to plan for that. But I have to get in there. And I don't know which route the taxi drivers gonna take. So I have to plan for that. Right. And I have to separately have a credit card, you know, for the payments, right? And figure out and build in time for that process. Maybe the machine doesn't work or Yeah, just in case or cash and, and and be there. So I am effectively doing five jobs. Now Uber comes along and says, here's an app, your credentials are pre built into it, you know, Point A to Point B will tell you how long it's going to take. We'll get the vehicle there and get you there. Huh? So they've taken a friction out of what we're five individual processes, because they built for the seeker because they know that you just want to get from point A to point B in a predictable way.
Jared Simmons 11:43
Right. Right. And, and the taxi model was designed for customers.
11:49
Exactly. And Uber was designed for the seeker, which was what is somebody really looking for when they're looking for a taxi? They're really looking for a predictable ride. Right?
Jared Simmons 11:59
Right, right. Now, that's a great analogy, because it turns them into subtasks. Whereas before they required separate mindshare, they required separate solutions and separate tools. And so I thought about, you know, all the things Uber kind of obviated, just by kind of doing that, with the taxi, it's, you know, you think that you're thinking about that discreet ride. But with Uber, when I opened the app, I'm thinking about how long it takes to get there.
12:26
That's right. And, and so think about, now if you know, the customer problem, if you know what the seeker is seeking, then the tech part of the problem becomes a lot clearer, right? They use AI, to create models of predicting how long it's going to take from point A to point B, they need to reach out to API's for mapping software, so they can visualize that on your phone. They have to become a payments vendor in a transactional system, because the payment has to be automatically process, right? They've got to build crowdsourcing technology with reviews, they've got to build fraud prevention on the other side. So the tech problem is an outgrowth of really understanding what the seeker is looking for.
Jared Simmons 13:10
Yeah, no, that that gives me a whole different way of me people use Uber as examples a lot, a lot, you know, now, but I've never heard anyone use it. As an example for something like that. That's really, that's really insightful. It also makes me think about, you know, comparing Uber to taxis, which has been done to death. But your your unique point of view makes me realize you had decided, Okay, we're gonna, it's kind of like the Henry Ford thing, if we asked people what they wanted data set a faster horse. And if you if you were, if you ask people what they wanted, they would say I want a more cost effective taxi ride, or I want, I want my taxi experience to be more consistent, but they would never say, I want to be able to open my phone. And in a single click, I mean, it's just, it's almost science fiction, if you look at it, compared to that tax experience.
13:57
That's right. And, you know, I think you raise a great point, which is that so many of the examples are these tech forward businesses. But actually, a lot of the research from the book is that there's these great examples in every industry across the world. You can see examples and fashion where where people have created fashion marketplaces that are optimizing style for exactly what values you represent as a human being. Right. There's a great example in the book of NHS digital, which, which actually delivers, which is government sponsored health care in the UK. And they built an app called the symptom checker. And what that app is, you're in the middle of the night, and all of us have been there where you've got a sick kid, and you don't know really what they're sick of. You're a little worried, right? You don't know if take them to the emergency room or just give them an Advil and they'll sleep it through the night. Right? So, NHS digital built a symptom checker where you can put the symptoms online and it will take you through a flow. Not to exactly diagnose you but at least to put your mind It rests, that it's kind of A or B or C, and then you can either decide to treat them or take them to the emergency room or whatever it might be. It's sort of a triage system.
Jared Simmons 15:09
Right, right,
15:10
you know, that is using medical data. And that's so much better than just googling symptoms online. And hoping for a great result. Another great example where Google puts the information online. But what the what the NHS digital decided is, well, really what the seeker is seeking is reassurance and a triage path. So let's does that.
Jared Simmons 15:33
Yes, yes. Solving for reassurance versus solving for information. Exactly. I mean, it kind of takes Google's mission to, you know, organize the world's information to the next level, it almost makes it look a bit archaic. And that's what innovation is supposed to do. It's supposed to make the thing before look out of date. It's supposed to push, push society forward. And that focus on assurance versus just I'm gonna organize the information so you can find it, which was a giant leap. Absolutely. But now saying, okay, here's what we can do, we can put AI on top of that we can put medical expertise, exactly. I would imagine there's some stochastic risk, you know, if I were building outputs, some stochastic risk modeling into it. Absolutely. So so I think that that makes a lot of sense. That's a great, that's a great example I hadn't come across now. We've talked a bit a lot about what innovation is what it looks like your point of view on it. What isn't innovation?
16:33
Well, that's a great question. One, it's not technology that sits in a dark room. That's cool, too, you know, I would say innovation is not, you know, cases where you largely are just doing the same thing, you know, in a marginally better way, right. And you see a lot of examples, that there's got to be step functions, and quality of output, I think, for it to be innovate, which doesn't mean it's not built incrementally, right. In fact, I think there's a whole great discussion to have about what it takes to deliver innovation as a company, what how do you organize for? How do you create business models around it? Because so much of what companies produce is not innovative? Because the teams, organizations are not set up for that. Right?
Jared Simmons 17:23
Right. Right. And that sort of puts a cap on the capability of your organization to innovate, whether you realize it or not, you can bring in top talent, you can, you know, give them all the greatest tools and everything. But if that team isn't organized in the right way, you're nullifying the the efforts and the other areas.
17:41
That's right. And what I find is that, you know, tying back to that seeker concept is you can actually organize, to build for the seeker to build these really innovative offerings for the seeker. Some of the keys in doing that are, you really need these cross functional, diverse teams that span multiple functions, tack design, product, marketing, legal privacy, all kinds of people organized around an offering. So you don't go say, I'm sending it to the legal department, I'm gonna send it to the marketing department, whatever it might be. You create these cross functional teams who are chartered with innovating for the seeker, and they work in a flywheel together. And then you couple that with the right KPIs, metrics, and incentive structure, yes, that associate the right business model, because things that are innovative, do take a certain amount of time, right. And often, the early customers, the early seekers aren't going to pay a lot for it. So you know, if you're looking for these short term outcomes, it's hard.
Jared Simmons 18:43
Right? Right. You went right, where I was headed, which was, you know, these cross functional innovation teams, I think are amazing and great in theory, and a lot of people will tell you, that's what they designed and organize around. It's right. But when you kind of peel back that first layer, you find out that the primary bonus structure for the technologist is patent. Yeah, or you know, something very siloed. You know, the primary bonus structure for the sales folks is very siloed. And so there's this tension between personal incentives, as you referenced incentives, and the sort of win for the team that sets the pace and the quality of innovation that can come out of that. I think it all has to be fully aligned. It does, it needs to totally hang together. Yeah. And in certainly in this area, in digital, where we operate and e commerce, it's critical to have almost a product mindset to this digital experience. So the same way you might go, you know, build an electric vehicle or, or something of that type.
19:45
You have to have that mindset to the digital experience that people have online. You know, and if you have that mindset, then you're shipping a product, right? And so I described it as recast your team to ship If you're shipping software,
Jared Simmons 20:01
I see I see, that's helpful for me personally, because I talk a lot of people about innovation. And I see a lot of job descriptions and things. And I always see these job descriptions called Product Manager in digital organizations. And, you know, I grew up in consumer packaged goods. So yeah, you know, I've always tried to wrap my head around, what product? are you managing? Like, I've worked on diapers, I worked on baby wipes or Coke, or what have you, you know, I understand Yeah, as a product. But now I think I understand better the concept around that title.
20:37
That's right. So if you take baby wipes or diapers, or something of that type, the typical company will define it as I'm a product manager for diapers. But actually, if you define yourself as the product manager for keeping a baby clean, yeah, then you're defining that experience much more broad. And you're thinking about everything that's involved in that process, which might include educational videos, which might include being able to find the right diaper for my child really easily, which might be which might mean might have to do with skin or ailments, or other such things. And then you build these highly innovative offerings, because you're rethinking the problem in a very different way.
Jared Simmons 21:20
Right, right. And I can see that concept in your book and that seeker mindset, not just being relevant in the digital environment, but in the physical product based environment as well. Yeah. Especially as I think the two worlds are coming together in a way that the domain specificity is going to go away over the next 10 years. Exactly. You
21:41
know, just to use another example. What about something like peloton, peloton and exercise bike? Or is it a spin class? Right? Or is it a digital competition? Or is it a fitness program? Is it a streaming service?
Jared Simmons 21:52
All of the above? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I love that your framework is so universal and fundamental. And I don't mean that in a reductionist sort of way. It's fundamental in a equals mc squared kind of way, like, simplicity. And elegance is is the core i think of innovation. And that seeker concept as a sort of a universal application to it. Yeah. Can I ask you a bit about tennis? Sure. So I'm always fascinated about hobbies, outside, you know, volunteer work, things like that with innovative folks. Tell me a bit about tennis, and how it has fit into your your life?
22:29
Well, look, I've been a tennis player for all my life. And I often tell future entrepreneur, that more than any education, it's the thing that helped me become a successful entrepreneur. Because it's a sport. It's certainly physically grueling requires incredible discipline, like many sports do, right? But uniquely, you're alone, right, and you need to solve the problems on the court, by yourself. Mm hmm. And that is lonely. That is tough. That takes incredible resilience and mental strength. And those are all the attributes that I would put very near the top for entrepreneurial endeavors that have lots of twists and
Jared Simmons 23:08
turns in the road. Never thought about the sort of solitude of tennis.
23:12
It's a solitary sport. And teams, teams and team skills have incredible value too. So I don't mean to diminish that, right. But in the end, we often have to process some of the toughest problems alone, and having the mental fortitude to pursue it. So So it's been a big part of my life. My kids are really into it. It's a sport I enjoy. And I've gotten involved in the US Tennis Association, as a board member for the player, devil Development Council. And actually, there's a there's, there's a great story actually in the book about tennis as well, because as part of the USDA work, you know, I've come to learn how the association has used data science to train the tennis players of the future mean, you know, where coaches when I was growing up, I used to go through videos and be like, here's what you did, right? Here's what you did. Right? And and here's how you can improve this situation that situation, AI is processing a lot of that, and really dictating training programs for athletes these days. Really? Wow.
Jared Simmons 24:09
That's incredible. It makes you excited to see what this this next wave of athletes is capable of?
24:15
Well, you don't get to be Tom Brady and 43 years old and winning Super Bowls without a lot of technology helping you along the way. Exactly.
Jared Simmons 24:23
That's exactly right. The thing that jumps out at me about tennis is the I can't imagine. I played a little basketball, a little bass, but very little baseball, they started throwing curveballs, and I just I was like, Okay, this is too tight. But in baseball and basketball, there are moments in times where you don't have to be paying full attention, right? And I just can't imagine after the ball is served. There's not a moment where you can't be paying full attention processing information, you know, making hypotheses about what the opponent's going to do. And then it's Seems like there's a lot of information to be processed during a point in a tennis match,
25:04
no doubt. And like all great athlete, it's a learned skill and muscle memory and mental conditioning. That that leads you to not have to overthink, right? But the stories, you know, people who are up and end up losing and people who are behind, and problems all their way to success are numerous. And so it's a it's a continuous problem solving self.
Jared Simmons 25:28
Yeah, yeah. The other unique thing to me about tennis is the scoring system and how that affects strategy. I've always wondered, you know, you go down five, one, what's the strategy behind whether you try to come back from that? Or you go down, you know, above 40? Yeah. Do you basically concede that game? Or do you, you know, and is there a code, you know, sort of a player's code that governs that, and you know, those sorts of things,
25:53
no doubt, and dealing with all those situations, whether it's down one, five and love 40, and how you play that point, or whether you're at three all and 30? All? Mm hmm. Which might be the most important point in the match, you'll play? Right? Right. Every situation the unique Yeah, you know, you've got the opponent, you've got yourself, you've got the elements around you. And that's kind of what you have
Jared Simmons 26:17
now asked me, thanks for indulging that diversion. I'm just curious person, I guess, any big moments or big aspects, I know you're an investor. And I'm sure you evaluate innovation as part of the way you think about evaluating investments and investment opportunities and things like that. But when you just look at your career, how has innovation sort of shaped your your career,
26:41
I believe, in many ways, innovation has been at the heart of everything I've done, because I've never sort of chosen the straight dotted line ahead of me, right. I've always viewed frankly, my education as my backstop. And sort of the day I graduated from college, and then grad school, basically was the day I could say, now I can do what I really want to do. Because if it doesn't work, I can fall back on my education and go get a job, oh,
Jared Simmons 27:13
that's a great benefit, great perspective.
27:16
And so with that mindset, you take risks, you try to find problems that you're passionate about people that you're passionate working with, and problem statements that you're really interested in solving for. And so, you know, I've been an entrepreneur now for 20 plus years across three ventures, and not only have the ventures been grounded in innovation, but every day how I approach my job in each of those ventures, I've tried to have a kind of an innovation mindset.
Jared Simmons 27:48
Yeah, it's got to be a difficult task to produce innovation as an as an output, if you're not operating with a mindset of innovation internally, within your organization, or within your company, no doubt. So any advice for innovators that are looking to follow the path that you've you sort of blazed here,
28:09
you know, maybe the most important advice I can give people is, let's say you're thinking about doing something innovative, I'll just use the example of of starting a company but which is, which is what I know, you know, from from my past, I always tell early entrepreneur, run the AV test in your mind of what it would be like to be a future entrepreneur before you become an entrepreneur. And so what does that mean? You know, if you're working for a company, put yourself in the situation of the founder, or the CEO, or the leader of your company, and ask yourself, if I were in that person's shoes, what would I be doing? What would I be doing today? What would I be doing about the project I'm working on, or the environment I'm in, you can run those mental tests. Because one day, if you take the leap and do it yourself, you will be in that. Right. And when you go through that mental exercise, you'll come to one of two conclusions. You'll either say, that sounds brutally difficult, and I just don't have a gut feel for what I would do in that position. And then you know, you're not ready. Or maybe you'll come to the conclusion. I trust my judgment. And then you're ready. Right,
Jared Simmons 29:07
right. Fascinating. It's more about that gut feel informed by the mental experiment, then Exactly. Have I checked the right boxes in my career? Do I know the right people? Have I, you know, learn the right things? Because I'm projecting here. But it seems like those are things if you've got the appetite for that in state, you will figure those other things out along the way. Exactly,
29:30
exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying. And often those mental tests is not just one test. You can take any small task. I'm working on this project, someone told me to work on this. If I were the person making a decision about whether this project would be done at all, what decision would I make? If I were making a decision about the team members? What decision would I make? If I were making a decision about how to take it to market? What decision would I make? Because one day you are going to be the person making all those decision
Jared Simmons 30:00
Right, right. And it's almost that mental rehearsal, your brain, you know, take makes it real. I see that as reps on the tennis court. Yeah, yeah, I see it as scales on the piano. There you go. Yeah. It's the same concept. You practice it, you know, so that when it's here, when it's when it's going on, you're ready to go. That's right. rash. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure talking with you. And I really appreciate you making the time to be on the show today. All right, look forward to talking again. We'll have to come back and have an episode just on organizing around innovation. Sounds good. Thanks, Jeff. All right. Take care.
Jared Simmons 30:41
We'd love to hear your thoughts about this week's show. You can drop us a line on Twitter at OUTLASTT LLC, or follow us on LinkedIn where we're OUTLAST Consulting. Until next time, keep innovating. Whatever that means.