Episode 11 of “What is Innovation?” is live! This week, Jared talks with David Metcalf who brings a wide range of experience to SpencerStuart's Leadership Advisory Services. David shares his thoughts on THRIVING backed with his experience of more than 15 years in corporate strategy, large-scale organization transformations, leadership consulting, law, financial services, and education. Listen and subscribe today!
David Metcalf talks about his unique view of innovation and its impact, on society at large -- that reflects his range of experiences in corporate strategy, law, financial services, and education.
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Episode Guide:
1:49 - What is Innovation
2:30 - What is THRIVING?
5:00 - Meaning and Innovation
7:45 - How-focused, Who-focused, and WHY-focused
13:35 - 80% of adult-waking hours
14:00 - Purpose and Dignity in work and in life
15:00 - Operating better to become the people we were meant to be
17:01 - Shifting values
19:00 - Re-engineering ability
22:56 - Advice to Innovators
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OUTLAST Consulting offers professional development and strategic advisory services in the areas of innovation and diversity management.
/This transcript was automatically generated using AI; please forgive any inconsistencies. We are working to provide the correct and more concise copy of the transcript. For urgent needs, please send us an email.
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Jared Simmons 00:05
Hello and welcome to What Is Innovation. The podcast that explores the reality of a word that is in danger of losing its meaning altogether. This podcast is produced by OUTLAST Consulting LLC, a boutique consultancy that helps companies use innovation principles to solve their toughest business problems. I'm your host, Jared Simmons, and I'm so excited to have David Metcalf on the show today. Based in Atlanta, David Metcalf brings a wide range of experience to Spencer Stuart's leadership advisory services. he advises clients on succession planning, leadership consulting, executive assessment and large scale organization transformations. David has more than 15 years of experience in corporate strategy, law, financial services and education. Before joining Spenser Stewart, David was senior vice president with Atlanta based SunTrust banks, where he oversaw incentives and training for employees at the bank's 1400 branches and develop strategies to drive sales growth. Prior to this work, David was an engagement manager at McKinsey and Company where he led culture transformation initiatives, large scale change management programs and corporate strategy engagements. Previously, David clerked in the United States District Court in the Southern District of Georgia, where he worked on civil and criminal matters. David graduated with distinction from the University of Virginia with a bachelor's degree in political and social thought and religious studies. He holds a master's degree from St. John's College and a law degree from Georgetown University where he graduated Cum Laude. David, it's quite a career, my friend. Welcome to the show.
David Metcalf 01:37
Thanks, Jared. Thanks for having me today.
Jared Simmons 01:38
Yeah, yeah, I'm excited about this. I'm looking forward to it. We always kick off the conversation with a very simple question. What is innovation?
David Metcalf 01:49
Well, as you and I talked about before, I don't know but I've got a great straightforward answer for it. I think innovation are things that help people do the stuff they (could) do better. I could probably dress that up a little bit. I might say something like, innovation is how we help people thrive or innovation is how we help one another thrive. For me, it's definitely not new gadgets. It's not a new app. It's not some new way to pay for something that you were going to buy otherwise. It's a little bit around, like helping people look the way they're supposed to look.
Jared Simmons 02:29
What does thrive mean to you? Tell me more about that. That word we talked about, people thriving?
02:36
I think about thriving, I mean, think about a plant that thrives. It's potted in the right soil, it's getting the right kind of nutrients, it's growing, and importantly, producing for the next generation. I think people... when people thrive, they do a similar thing. They're rooted in a spot. They've got a power of place and of community and they're productive. They're generating life. I think importantly, generating life for the next generation. I love the phrase, "civilizations flourish, when old men plant trees, in whose shade they will never sit." There's something... we are thriving when we're making stuff for people who we will never meet. I distinguish in that the notion of making stuff only for ourselves, or making stuff only for our families. To me, when I think about thriving, there's this notion of community that has to play a role of permanency kind of like looking past that right now. We took toward our past, our immediate situation, to what's best for all for a long time.
Jared Simmons 03:47
Right? Right. I love that I love the aspect of your definition of innovation, that points to the outcome or to the benefit. Because what I'm hearing from you is that, you know, for something to be innovative, it can't be for its own sake or for your own sake, it has to have sort of a more enduring, timeless, selfless element to it that that looks past your own existence.
David Metcalf 04:16
Yeah, like some notion of permanence, permanent, that gives meaning because, to me, like incremental improvement, that's just for like, we ran the 100 yard dash a little bit faster, like, hard to get excited for me personally about that, because there's always gonna be somebody else who kind of does that. But people who make lasting change and who leave a footprint, whether it be massive in the form of change societies, or less so in the form of, you know, just a child who you've raised to be a good member of society. Both of those are really projections into the future with I think, kind of permanence that matters.
Jared Simmons 04:56
Well said well said another Great word that that fell in my ear while you're talking meaning, we think about meaning it's probably something people don't talk about a lot in connection with innovation. I think it's a, I think it's a brilliant connection to make for a number of reasons. But tell me a bit more about why meaning shows up in your sort of definition of innovation.
David Metcalf 05:21
I don't know why. I mean, I think part of it is that, I think, in part because I would define my type of innovation, the kind that I get excited about, and needs to contribute something. So forgive me as I sort of stumbled through this, but I kind of want to set it up against innovation in the purely physical kind of rapidly passing notion. And so that's why like, I think we often think innovation must be technological. Hmm. And I'm suspicious of that, like, we have seen a lot of technological innovation. But when I look at the events of your lifetime, in my lifetime, sure, it's not clear to me that we've seen as much lasting meaning, like made innovative innovation, right? In like how we interact with each other, and in how we, how we order our society, and how how we show up in our relationships in our families. And so I know I'm sorry, that's so philosophical, but like, I guess, we've fallen in love with like, technological innovation, and I'm guilty, I've got like, I got the latest iPhone, I love it. But that, to me, that's not like taking the human race, kind of where it ought to go, or where it could go. I love that that Apple ad that has Robin Williams, from Dead Poets Society, you know, like, where he has that he's doing that amazing quote, like poetry and like, it makes your heart quit and basically like, right, the reason I think that ad is so great, and people are not the only one who thinks that but other people too. It's like, it just reminds us that we as people have the ability to touch and to impact things that have real meaning and permanence that will make your heart Quicken and your your pace your pulse, Quicken. And, like, I don't want to disrespect people who also drive technological innovation, but I believe those things ought to be created in service of human meeting of transcendent meaning in whatever form we can forge that
Jared Simmons 07:17
right now. That's, that's, that's well said, I think the element of technology, being in service of this social, you know, meaning driven definition of innovation is important and additive to any innovation conversation. Because it doesn't exclude the technology, it puts it in context, and it gives it a direction, which I think, to your point, last sort of 30 years of innovation has been very how focused. And then, you know, PNG and other companies made it very who focused. And I think there's an opportunity for us over the next 20 3040 years to make it a little more why focused? Yeah, I love and, and, and I think that's where your definition takes me is to, you know, great, you can make a phone bigger, you can make it faster, you can put 17 cameras on the back of it instead of 15. But why? And, and that, I think is a question we all need to wrestle with, given where we sit, you know, in early 2021, talking about innovation and looking out at the world, we're looking at it, and that's why I'm so glad we're talking today, because your view of the world, you know, law degree, bachelor's degree in political and social thought, religious studies, and then you know, you and I were management consultants, you know, the needle doesn't swing much further in the, in the other direction. So, just the span of, you know, your view of the world and the types of problems you've solved. And the way you see things, I think is an important lens to try to help people apply to to their innovative endeavors. You know, thinking about your definition of innovation, what isn't innovation in your mind?
David Metcalf 09:13
I think innovation is not a marginal improvement of impermanent things. So that's why I put like, gadget tree there, right? It's not like just getting through a day, right? But if innovation is around, helping people to thrive, then a person any person is empowered to innovate, when they teach a child how to ride a bike, or teach a child how to discern right from wrong, or or like, help a person in need to find their next meal. Like those things are, like helping people to thrive. Right. Versus the I don't want to I'm not trying to throw too many stones at technology in those big tech companies, but like, it's not like hey, we added small place to our calculator.
Jared Simmons 10:03
Right? And what what comes to mind is, you know, I wonder, and there's been articles written about this all over the place. But, you know, if you look at the amazing things that the Gates Foundation has done for the world, sure. And that if you, you get the kind of innovative perspective he brought to the problems he wanted to solve, and how and that is funded, and the the concepts were sort of incubated over a career driving technological innovation. And his application of what he learned to thought developed, you know, in all of those things, ultimately came to a humanistic view that you have innovation that you're describing, I think in a lot of ways, so he you know, if you look at the that evolution, to me, it's, it's from the technological to the, to the more impact driven definitions of innovation. And I wonder if there's an opportunity for the next Bill Gates, or Jeff Bezos, or Richard Branson, or whomever, to start there, to start with a, with a construct that does good and moves technological aspect of society forward. At the same time.
David Metcalf 11:27
I think we've got a lot of examples in history of times when the technological innovators accumulated capital and then used it for having accumulated enough they could use it in a material way. So like Rockefellers, not a great guy. But you know, he starts a bunch of libraries, right? Rockefeller doesn't libraries,
David Metcalf 11:47
Carnegie, it was Carnegie, Carnegie, thank
David Metcalf 11:49
you. So we got some of those, there's like sort of the redemption that, that maybe you know, when you have real material capital accumulated, you can use it in ways that Lee can leave a lasting impact on it, you see gates doing a similar kind of thing that makes I mean, I love that, when folks have the ability, having accumulated capital to then use it in a way that has great impact. That's terrific. I also don't, that maybe I ran too far down the tracks of like anti technological innovation. There's a book I read called Garden City, that is a theology of work. And which talks about like, whatever you are, whether you are a board member, or a, you know, VP of innovation, or a carpenter, or a barista, or wherever, in whatever spectrum, be great at that thing, whatever you are, apply yourself to that thing and be great at it. Probably there are boundaries around immoral or amoral jobs, where it's like, don't be a great kidnapper, sir. But But I but I like that also lifegiving notion that it lends dignity to work of all kinds that like we are, I believe, personally, made to labour, like, I think that's part of our DNA as people. And so we should work and find fulfillment in those maybe not finding ultimate meaning in them. But they are a way that we show who we are made to be, which is part of it's now sort of a very roundabout sort of entry point to kind of why I do what I do. I spend a lot of time thinking about leadership, I assess leaders, I work with individual leaders to help them coalesce into teams, and I help those teams think about how they change their organizations. I do that because I Somewhere I read that we spend like 80% of our adult waking hours inside of organizations, companies. Wow. And if that's the case, that means it's more time than we spend with our families, or in our places of worship or in our civil society. And so, therefore, organizations have an incredible impact on humans. Also running parallel with that, like, like I said, I do believe we were created for a purpose, and with dignity, in work and in life. And so I fundamentally think we, we who work in organizations, for profit organizations, but also not for profit. We all have this incredible impact on the people who work around us. Like I remember, when you and I were consulting together, one of my clients was a railroad. And the frontline folks on the railroad, were like, this is an incredibly stressful job. And if you do it poorly, people get really badly hurt and all this stuff in the end these these railroad folks, they average like three divorces per person, right? They would sleep is dating both of us a little bit. They would sleep with their blackberries on their chests and said in case something went wrong, like in the yard, and I just remember thinking it must be really hard to go home and coach your kids t ball team, right? Or even just sit down and dinner and like a dinner and ask how's everybody's day doing? That's where real like life happens ought to happen is like in those in your community, in your family. And so, this company into its credit, this company invested a lot in Training these folks to do their jobs better, right? When our companies operate better, we the people who operate within them get to look a little more like the thing we were created to be the people we were supposed to be. So that's where that roots of like, that notion of thriving, for me lives is like, right? We, we don't just, we do have to make money. That's how that's how we like earn the right to do this stuff. But while doing that, are we creating an environment in which people can thrive because they can do their jobs better, so they can go home less stressed out, so they can be better members of their community and better members of their family? are we creating environments like that, that are helpful to people thriving? Or are we somehow continuing to just like drive in a way that doesn't allow them to thrive, but but steals from their families in order to sort of put it in other places, right, I have dream of those win wins, where the leaders with whom I work, can achieve the goals that they have, and that their shareholders have that allow them to stay in business, while creating circumstances and environments in which their people can thrive so that the best people want to work there. And with the best people working there, they can continue to improve and continue to outperform in a sustainable way. That's my sort of earthly Nirvana, you know, how do I like how do I help those kinds of environments get set up again to flourish? Brilliant,
Jared Simmons 16:22
I think the the aspect of applying this mindset, applying this philosophy to, to work. So you know, the railroad example, and kind of what you bring to your, your, your work as a consultant today, bringing that mindset of productive change for, for humanity, it frees you from the technology, technological, imperative of change. And I think right now, when we think about something, moving something forward, or advancing something, or, you know, introducing a new thing into the world. Question is, well, what's your platform? What platform? Are you going to do it on? You know, how does it have an app, you know, these, these real, and I do the same thing, you know, these are the first questions that pop in your head. But you think about what your client did for those, the their employees, what you help your current clients do for their employees. It's innovative stuff, it's changing the fabric of the of an organization's it's changing lives, it's improving, improving the outcomes for the organization. And I love the fact that it breaks this false notion of shifting value. So I sometimes talk about their companies that shift value from their employees, yeah, to the consumer. And I think that's a lot of companies have made a lot of money doing that. And people have tolerated it. A lot of industries operate that way. And I what I think is a truly innovative about what you're describing is that it is true value creation. So you're not saying you're creating value, and then you know, ruining your employees lives. Yeah, to better the lives of consumers. You truly creating value, if you can make it make your consumer and your employees lives better at the same time.
David Metcalf 18:22
Totally. I love that. And technology has a real role to play in that.
Jared Simmons 18:26
It does, you know, like as subservient but important role. Yeah, like,
David Metcalf 18:30
for instance, let's use BP after the Deepwater Horizon incident. All right. So it along the way BP probably before the incident layered on 5000 safety protocols. And the way they did it was they emailed everybody. And they were like, read this and do it differently. Well, that happened in some cases and not in others. And the reason I think changing, the way work gets done matters is that actually the technology folks in some of these companies have the ability, albeit an expensive ability to re engineer the way work gets done, to take away the manual stuff. And to take away the ways that people slip up and forget to do things, right. I saw this working in a bank, we would come up with an idea, like let's do something and be like, great, just tell everybody tell every tell her to do it differently. Like, okay, we could do that. Right? Or it's gonna cost us money. What if we took this work out of the system and took the judgment out of it so that this person could focus on building the relationship with their client and not unlike reading page 64? line 81 on the CFPB ease disclosure, right? that technology has a really important role in like, allowing the people who do the work to do the things that only people can do. Otherwise, we do the really cheap thing, which is what you're talking about shifting value from your worker to your to your user, or it's like do your person figure this out in this all day while you're doing this and use your brain power to do that thing that we do Could it'll take us a little while to engineer out?
Jared Simmons 20:03
Yeah, yeah.
David Metcalf 20:04
So down a little bit of a rabbit hole that to me, it's like, yeah, technology should be in service in that.
Jared Simmons 20:09
That's a great point. And I think it also enables companies to keep people's attention. Because I think sometimes when we do things the same way over and over and over again, you know, here's the clipboard, sit in this room for 20 minutes, sign the clipboard that you were here. And that's your that's your training. You do that over and over and over again, we as humans, we get desensitized. Right. And so I think technology has this refreshing aspect to it as well, where you break the monotony, and get people re engaged with the content in a way that that ensures, ensures that they're truly internalizing it. Yeah. And like you were saying, pulling steps out, pulling the repetitive tasks that are not user focused, that are not, you know, human only kind of activities, that also just moves everybody forward. There's no loser in that situation. So as long as the company is willing to play the long game. I think those types of things don't get the attention they should, when you're managing a company from one quarter to the next.
David Metcalf 21:24
That's right, because quarter by quarter management leads to manual work around in a lot of patches. Yep. Rather than looking deep, solve the root cause with a thoughtful, meaningful, permanent solution, right? Because it's really easy for the folks in middle management, and I've been one to be like, that's a manual workaround. Just figure it out. Like they'll they'll get it Well, everybody knows that. It's these are well meaning manual workarounds. And pretty soon, everybody on the frontlines got like, 600 manual workarounds.
Jared Simmons 21:54
Exactly. That's
David Metcalf 21:55
that can't be how this thing gets done. Right. Yeah.
Jared Simmons 21:57
No, I, I've been right there, too. If we're both guilty. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So we are allowed to have this conversation. Because we know that what we speak crucial, yeah, I've definitely said, Okay, well, how much? How much time? Is it really going to cost you five minutes? Just just, you know, just do that. And, and we'll figure it out later, but later, never comes? Or comes? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. David, based on, you know, kind of all the, everything you've seen, and your unique view of things. And one thing I'm super curious about is, is, you know, any advice you would have for innovators or people out there, you know, in technological roles in, in whatever environment, I mean, you've been in, you've been in court, you've been in, you know, boardrooms, you've been, you know, all over the, you've been all over the the corporate world and seen a lot of different things. Any any advice? Based on based on your, your take on things?
David Metcalf 22:59
I mean, I love where you took us early, which is like, ask the why, like, what, why are we doing this thing? And that might be for our technological friends who, you know, what, why, why are we doing this thing? We're, I remember the debate around, you know, pretty soon you'll be able to Photoshop videos,
Jared Simmons 23:17
right?
David Metcalf 23:18
And everybody was like, Well, yeah, we're gonna release that and allow everybody to do it. And there are a whole bunch of harmful potential side effects. But everybody was like, if I don't release it, somebody else will. It was sort of like, well, that's kind of like, you're a member of this society. What's your responsibility? So that's one. Yeah. And then for the leaders, that you think in addition to that sort of why question like, you know, remembering the, the inherent dignity and goodness of the people in every part of every organization that you work with. Now, I know that's easy to say, and sounds good, maybe, but how do you as a leader, as a CEO, contribute either to helping people to thrive, or to helping them not thrive? And every day, every leader has to make trade offs. And then some days you have great days, and you're really advancing the ball in one direction and other days are not so great. And you? You don't? Right. But I do think we are part of the frustration that we see in one side of our maybe even both sides of our political nightmare, is that we've we have often lost sight of the people part of all of this and the people that we are touching as leaders. And you know, it may be a conversation for another day, but as a leader, your responsibility and folks talked about like the triple bottom line, and those things are nice, but like, we have a real responsibility to the people whose families are affected by our work wherever we are. And I I know that's a hard thing to keep in mind when you're being asked for, you know, the rollout plan for your whatever, that's three weeks by Because somebody in corporate messed it up, you know, I get That's hard. But I do think that we sometimes ignore, often to our peril, the long tentacles that our work have, and the way that people, their lives, their families are affected by the decisions we make the things we say the ways we show up, those things are meaningful. And those things are kind of like they will have long and lasting meaning for the people who were affected by them.
Jared Simmons 25:29
Well said, Well said, thank you so much for your time, David, and for diving in. I know your bio is lengthy and you've done amazing things. And but nowhere in there does it say innovation. So I appreciate you being open to joining me and chatting about this because I've definitely learned a lot and I think others will as well. That's right. It's
David Metcalf 25:52
a treat. It's great to be with you. Anytime you and I get to talk. It's a it's a privilege. And so thanks for taking the time to talk today.
Jared Simmons 25:59
I appreciate it. Have a great day and we'll talk again soon, my friend. You too. Have a good one. All right. Take care.
Jared Simmons 26:11
We'd love to hear your thoughts about this week's show. You can drop us a line on Twitter at OUTLAST LLC, or follow us on LinkedIn where we're OUTLAST Consulting. Until next time, keep innovating. Whatever that means.