This week, Jared talks witih Hung Nguyen, a professional development coach and leader in BP talent management. Hung offers her unique perspective on innovation, including the importance of curiosity and passion for what you do.
Hung Nguyen, professional development coach, and leader in BP talent management, offers her unique perspective on innovation, including the importance of curiosity and passion for what you do.
More about our guest:
Hung Nguyen, professional development coach and leader in BP talent management, offers her perspective on what innovation is...and isn’t. Her deep expertise and unique sense of humor are on full display as she discusses her perspective on the future of talent management, the role of curiosity in innovation, and the connection between innovation and frayed clothing.
Episode guide
2:30 - Innovation is about creativity and trying new things
4:11 - innovation in the corporate world
7:13 - What isn't innovation
12:03 - Right people, right team, right roles
13:35 - Innovation at BP
18:47 Different standpoints
23:04 - Advice for future Innovators
Featuring:
Hung Nguyen (@misshungnguyen), professional development coach and leader in BP Talent Management.
Host:
Jared Simmons (@outlastllc), Founder and Principal at OUTLAST Consulting LLC
More to explore:
Fun fact: Hung and her husband Chee were contestants on Season 32 of the Amazing Race! Follow their journey
The book with the story about tall basketball players: The Undoing Project: A Friendship That Changed Our Minds
A song about unraveling sweaters
Thanks:
Theme: “This Must Be Heaven” by Buzz Amato
Editing and Production: Buzz Amato
Marketing and Visuals: Naomie Oplado
Follow us:
Jared Simmons 00:05
Hello, and welcome to what is innovation. The podcast that explores the reality of a word that is in danger of losing its meaning altogether. This podcast is produced by OUTLAST Consulting LLC, a boutique consultancy that helps companies use innovation principles to solve their toughest business problems. I'm your host, Jared Simmons, and I'm so excited to have hung win on the show today. Thanks for joining us.
Hung Nguyen 00:31
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Jared Simmons 00:35
Hung, and I go way back. She had the misfortune of managing me as part of a team during her time at McKinsey, and unfortunately, she hasn't been able to get rid of me ever since. So I really appreciate you making the time.
Hung Nguyen 00:50
It's like a fungal infection will never completely be gone.
Jared Simmons 00:55
I hope you're right. Hung leads the digital center of expertise at BP. Her vision is to recruit, develop and deploy talent in a radical way to increase team's engagement and purpose. Prior to BP, she worked at McKinsey and Company as a strategy consultant focused on organizational effectiveness. She has a bachelor's degree in psychology and economics from Harvard College, and an MBA from Stanford Graduate School of Business. Her interests in behavioral science and decision making extend beyond work and into her proudest real life psych experiments, her three daughters and pup cowboy. And I think that that bio tells you everything you need to know about Han. So I'm looking forward to to a great discussion. This is the first episode of our podcast. And so just a little bit about the format, what we'll do is, every week we're going to talk to a different person. And we're going to explore what is innovation? As a question, what isn't innovation and and then we'll talk a bit about how each person's experience has been shaped by innovation as part of their career in otherwise. And so I'm hoping that we'll get to see things from a lot of different angles. And and learn a lot from about different people. So what we'll do is get started today. And the way I like to kick things off, is to talk to you a bit about about innovation. So what is innovation in your mind.
Hung Nguyen 02:29
In my mind, innovation is about being creative, and trying new things, regardless of how big or small The idea is. So this could be new combinations, permutations, ideas that haven't been tried before, ideas that have been tried before, but weren't executed successfully. So all of these things encompass innovation. And while some of the ideas will be great, and fruitful, others might be terrible. But it's the process of trying new ideas for you, the person or your team, or really your organization to continue progressing. Because without innovation, you might become stagnant and irrelevant. And stop growing.
Jared Simmons 03:25
No one wants that, right?
Hung Nguyen 03:27
No. And while lots of organizations that I've been a part of talk about innovation, and want to do it, a lot of people talk about it, but don't appropriately invest or experiment with innovation.
Jared Simmons 03:44
Right. Right. And so it sounds like creativity and exploration is at the heart of the way you see innovation.
Hung Nguyen 03:54
Absolutely.
Jared Simmons 03:55
And and help me understand how that kind of breaks down in the, in the corporate world from your point of view, as you talk about innovation not actually happening.
Hung Nguyen 04:09
Sure. And I think that in the corporate world, people principally are supportive of innovation because they see incredible case studies about how innovation changes lives, and changes hearts and minds. increases revenue decreases costs, so people get the innovation is important. But while they want to do it, oftentimes they don't know how to figure out an effective innovation process. So often, an organization might create a special team like a SWAT team to you think about innovation in that corner in that tower over there by themselves. And their their remit is to create this fantastic unicorn A billion dollar business and then bring it back over to you know, the mothership, and then we'll scale it and sell it and everything will be great, right? I think in that process, we've missed a few tricks. And you can't separate innovation from the core business model of an organization or a business.
Jared Simmons 05:22
What are some of the implications of that when that does happen?
Hung Nguyen 05:26
When you separate the head from the body, or in this case, like the heart from the body, it just doesn't work. both pieces hurt from that the team that's tasked with innovation may not get the proper nurture feeding investment talent that it needs, it might not get the appropriate diversity of talents, because you're probably putting people who are really great at innovation in a corner, but they might not have domain expertise. And it's really at that intersection between domain expertise and innovation, that domain agnostic that something actually comes out of it. And also, if you, if the organization doesn't have innovation in its DNA, then the organization might be too hesitant to try things that are risky. And that's truly when step change innovation happens.
Jared Simmons 06:31
Hmm. Well said, Yeah, I couldn't agree more, I think, I think one of the one of the key things you touched on there was people tend to apply innovation and innovation, thinking to new things, new products, new services, etc. Whereas it doesn't necessarily have to be applied to new things. The process of innovation is something that can improve existing processes, existing products. And it can be used, you know, in house, as well.
Hung Nguyen 07:11
Agreed.
Jared Simmons 07:12
So tell me what innovation isn't. What is innovations? That is not what?
Hung Nguyen 07:19
Yeah, so we started talking a little bit about that. And innovation isn't just talking about it, innovation is doing it and potentially failing, and learning from those failures. Innovation isn't a one time investment or hit. It's a whole way of being and thinking. And probably the best way to illustrate that is the fact that some people are in their personal lives are a bit more creative and exploratory. And that same concept could be applied to a whole team or organization. So if you continue to be curious about whatever you're working on whatever widget you're working on, whatever process you're working on. That's when innovation comes to life.
Jared Simmons 08:12
Tell me more about curiosity, what does that what does that look like?
Hung Nguyen 08:17
Curiosity could be a couple of things. One is, I'm seeing some sort of thread loose on a sweater and just pulling at it, even though it might not be the best thing to do. Because you just can't resist the urge. Just pull and try to learn, hopefully, something cool before your sweater comes loose or before you become naked. The other piece of curiosity is around taking external inspiration and applying it to your home base, or your domain expertise. There's a lot of innovation that happens to your point earlier, not because it's a brand new idea. But because it was an idea that exists in another context, another culture, another industry that will apply to your home base domain could radically change the product, or how you view the current challenge.
Jared Simmons 09:23
Right. So curiosity, in your mind, can lead to ragged clothing or it could lead to new applications, absolutely new ways of doing things. So not necessarily a new problem to solve but a new application of of a solution existing solution.
Hung Nguyen 09:45
Yep, that's it.
Jared Simmons 09:49
The important thing here is that that having some sort of innate curiosity, so There's innovation at a, at a corporate level at a team level. And then there's, there's what happens at an individual level, what makes a person innovative? Yeah. And then I think you, you know, your background in psychology and economics. And you know, your current role at BP is thinking about innovation at the individual level is really something I'd love to hear your, your thoughts on.
Hung Nguyen 10:29
Sure. Um, at the end of the day, any business or organization is just created by individual folks who have decided that day that that they're going to come to work, and that they are going to share their gifts and their energy. And if you have a pool of humans, who are just coming to work, to punch a card, or to just copy the text from a book that already exists, then you would get one sort of product. And if you have a pool of humans, talent, who comes into work, wanting to solve problems, wanting to be creative, wanting to learn, wanting to inspire, and to be inspired, you get a completely different products. And so, I strongly feel that at the end of the day, we have to invest, we have to select for the right mindsets and behaviors, to nurture and to incentivize that behavior, because through the behaviors of one individual, and then as a collective, a team, that's when new things can come out, through Creative Conversations, problem solving, or even creative play and banter. And something might come out,
Jared Simmons 11:47
right. Yeah, exactly. like a like a sweater threading led to a great conversation. I, you know, I can hear the passion in your voice as you talk about this at an individual level and finding the right people. How do you how do you ensure that in your current role and into your past roles? You know, if you're building a team at McKinsey, even how do you how do you what do you look forward to to make sure you're finding the right people?
Hung Nguyen 12:18
So I'm in my current role, I am tasked to create a digital center of expertise. And BP is an oil and gas. And we have a new ambition to reinvent BP and reimagined energy. And we are trying to buy oil, we know a fundamental building block is around having a different set of talent, both in terms of their digital expertise, so data science, coding, those things that you can learn, but also, that we have to optimize and choose people who are curious and open minded and will continue to learn, right, because what people the skills that people have today may not be the skills that are relevant tomorrow. And we really don't know what those skills are. But we if we have a agile workforce, who's always curious and is always learning, then we are then...foolproof is not the right word...
Jared Simmons 13:25
Future proof?
Hung Nguyen 13:27
Future proof! That is it. Yeah. Um, yes. So in my work there, we identified definite areas where we need to build what we're we're just lacking technical skills. And we knew that the easy answer would like be to be go external, and hire those folks who have those skills ready to go. But there was a curious alternative that I wanted to try first, which was to see if there were people internally, because we have really smart people who actually, in their spare time, have developed their own digital skills, either self taught, or in formalized programs that they're doing in their spare time, because they're highly motivated to continue to learn.
Jared Simmons 14:21
Interesting.
Hung Nguyen 14:22
And we found that there was a very, very robust talent pool who are very excited about data science. And it makes sense because we have a huge workforce of people who have advanced math skills, right. And as data science is developing, these folks have sought to just grow their skills because they're intellectually curious. And they have created algorithms and models in their spare time to try to predict the stock market or try to automate their own jobs so they could free up capacity to do other cool fun things and so on. I tried to take stock of that internal landscape, and then try to get support to create a re skilled class. So identify a group of 10 or so folks who had the basic skills that we could take, and then provide a bit more formal training, so that they can build on their very strong foundation of advanced math, and then their self taught layer of data science methodology, and then do a lot of on the job, work and training to apply all of those things to data science. And I think that the, the cherry on the top is that these people are highly, highly motivated. So I knew that because their hearts and minds were in the right place, it would be very easy to upskill and rescale them to do so. And by doing that, a, we can take advantage of folks who have oil and gas domain expertise, be there folks who are already understand the way that BP works, and can get stuff done within the very large matrix organization. And I see, it really shows the organization that although we are evolving into a more digital organization, we're not leaving folks behind. But there are opportunity that if you are excited, if you are interested, if you want to we can we skill, it's not, you know, right, it's not robots gonna take over our jobs, you know, it could be you just doing taking over a new job.
Jared Simmons 16:41
Wow, that's, that's wonderful. I think that's, that's such a great message. It just in general, in terms of, I feel like, you know, people talk about this coming wave of automation, and AI and all these other things, but there's always an element of evolution that we control. And, you know, it's the people who are able to evolve, that will continue to play a critical role in the future, I think, is what I'm taking from what you're saying.
Hung Nguyen 17:09
Yes! It's the people who want to innovate themselves, yeah, who are who are out there, you know, trying new ideas, seeing what they like, and not stagnant and stuck in the way that things are done now, or don't hold too tightly on the status quo.
Jared Simmons 17:27
I think the brilliance behind your approach is that you have already you are able to observe what most people try to recruit for an artificial interview environment, or by reading a resume or looking at experience. You can look at this person in their day to day world and see, are they curious? You know, are they motivated to learn and evolve and grow and develop new skills? So I think that that is a great model for how to think about recruiting in any, you know, digital, or any other domain as we move forward. Because you're right. I mean, as we've learned from 2020, we don't know what tomorrow will bring, or next week or next month, and it's not the people who have the skills that are relevant today that are going to win, it's the people who can quickly acquire the skills that are going to be relevant tomorrow. So I really, I think this, I think the vision of reimagining energy is is, you know, I think this is going to be the cornerstone of that. And I think you're playing a critical role in that.
Hung Nguyen 18:41
It has been a really exciting experiment. And so far, so good. from a business standpoint, we are delivering value, which is fantastic. From a talent perspective, people also seem to be responding really well. They feel that the company is now recognizing who they are what they want to do, rather than forcing them to do something that they might not, because just because you're good at something doesn't mean that's where your passion is. And in a perfect world, we've tried to find that sweet spot between the Venn diagram of what you're good at and what you want to do, right. And so but by investing in these folks this way, people are really excited about their new job, their new role, and actually creating something new.
Jared Simmons 19:35
That's fantastic. And I think, you know, what you mentioned reminded me of an anecdote I read in a book once about NBA players. This NBA General Manager, was trying to figure out how to better evaluate players. And what he found was, you know, a lot of the players who were seven feet tall, didn't like basketball that much. You know, And it's something that, that I never would have crossed my mind. But, you know, when you're seven feet tall and relatively coordinated, and live in the United States, basketball is going to be something that people, you know, push push you toward, and you get rewarded for it. And you, you know, and all of a sudden, it's what you do for a living. Yeah. And maybe you don't even like it. And so that is, I think, something that people can, that happens more in corporate America than people realize. You're good at math, you should become an engineer. Yes, oh, you should do this, you should do that. And you know, you're 15 years into a career and one day you go, I don't really, I'm not sure that I even like this stuff that I do every day and an expert at, you know,
Hung Nguyen 20:51
Is that why you became an engineer? Because you were good at math.
Jared Simmons 20:54
I became an engineer, because the the PSAT Do you remember that test?
Hung Nguyen 21:04
I took it, but didn't do too good.
Jared Simmons 21:08
The, the,
Hung Nguyen 21:10
that is why I didn't do too good.
Jared Simmons 21:16
So the you had to put down there, they asked for a major and it was so that, you know, if you did well, you could get a scholarship in that area. So the lady at the front, the teacher at the front of the room that was moderating. I said, I don't I don't know what I want to do. And she said, she said, Do you like math? And I said, Yeah. She said, then, you know, you should be an engineer. And I said, Okay, well, there's several different kinds of engineers down here. And she said, and she said, Well, whatever you do, don't pick chemical engineering, because that's the hardest one. And so that's how I became a chemical engineer.
Hung Nguyen 21:55
Isn't that crazy? Yeah, our lives take different paths. Because what if because you're tall too. So what if she said basketball player?
Jared Simmons 22:08
Exactly, I would be very hungry right now. looking, looking for something, something else to do. But ya know, it's it's amazing, the small moments in life that take you down these paths. And that's why I think things like reskilling and in focusing on ability to evolve, it's really inspirational to me, as someone who, you know, started life as a chemical engineer became a, you know, moved into product development and became a consultant and all these other things. It's an important, it's an important thing to, to let people know that, you know, innovation happens at the individual level. And it starts with not just your skills, but with your willingness to be curious. And, you know, and build new muscles. Talking about individuals and innovators. what, if any advice would you have for innovators of the future people who want to become part of this great workforce, you're building it at BP?
Hung Nguyen 23:17
And so I think in terms of the BP specific answer, it would be truly taking stock of it's that Venn diagram diagram that I mentioned before, what are you good at? It's important to know what your strengths are, and what are you passionate about? And hopefully there is an overlap somewhere between those two circles? Yeah, exactly. If not, you need to grow your circles a bit. So that's a very BP specific answer in terms of reskilling to be part of the digital revolution. But in terms of broader advice for innovators of the world, it's about being willing to test new ideas, and to trust yourself and the universe a bit to be that kid that you once were, that liked to try new things just for the sake of trying. And if you try things, and you like it, great, you learn something. And if you try something and you hate it, because you did terrible, you probably learned something even bigger and more important. Yeah. And that process of trying and learning and iterating and is how you will continue to evolve as an innovator in the world.
Jared Simmons 24:39
Thank you. That was a great advice. That's great advice for me personally, and I'm sure it's gonna be great advice for for our listeners as well. Thank you so much for hanging out with me for a little bit and sharing your thoughts with with me and with the audience. I've benefited from your wisdom for years and I'm glad to have the opportunity to share it with with others. I've tolerated your sense of humor as well. So I hope that I hope everyone else appreciated it as much as I always do.
Hung Nguyen 25:12
Thank you, Jared, this has been a lot of fun.
Jared Simmons 25:15
Yeah. Hung, thanks for joining us. We'd love to hear your thoughts about this week's show. You can drop us a line on Twitter or follow us on LinkedIn where we're at Outlast Consulting. Until next time, keep innovating. Whatever that means.