Episode 16 of “What is Innovation?” is live! This week, Jared talks with Jeff Wiguna, Co-Founder of Kuju Coffee and an avid jazz musician. Hear how Jeff’s view of innovation in the business world is influenced by his musical training.
Jeff Wiguna, Co-Founder of Kuju Coffee, describes how confidence and bravery boost innovation in music and business.
More about our guest:
Prior to brewing up Kuju, Jeff was sales & marketing director at Good Paper, a fair trade consumer goods company, where he led a turnaround from declining sales to national distribution at Whole Foods Market. Jeff is passionate about building brands that have a scaled and relevant impact on the world. His favorite Kuju? "I love all of them, literally. But if I had to pick - Single Origin Papua New Guinea on the daily and Bold Awakening for when I need a real pick me up." His favorite brew: Single Origin Papua New Guinea His favorite place to indulge in it: Anywhere with a view.
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Episode Guide:
1:50 - What Is Innovation
3:40 - Target in itself
5:20 - Overplaying in Music and Business
6:02 - Trying to impress
6:19 - Adding bravery and sense of humanity
6:44 - Destructive products
8:00 - Bill Evans' intentionality and building on
9:12 - Human temptation of trying to impress
9:32 - Making connections than impressions
9:40 - Impression by definition
9:54 - Jazz Improv
11:09 - Human nature: impressing and 'woodshedding'
11:53 - Leading with a hard part as a business
12:34 - "Are we connecting with what we wanted to do in the beginning?"
13:07 - Focusing on Brand Message
13:44 - Cap table and institutional fundings
14:09 - Staying true and building on as a VC
15:00 - Bravery: connotation of positive ends
20:12 - Innovation is a form of change
22:07 - Innovation like a jazz solo
29:23 - Art of listening
30:00 - Staying true to form
32:51 - What is not innovation
33:37 - Advice to Future Innovators
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OUTLAST Consulting offers professional development and strategic advisory services in the areas of innovation and diversity management.
/This transcript was automatically generated using AI; please forgive any inconsistencies. We are working to provide the correct and more concise copy of the transcript. For urgent needs, please send us an email.
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Jared Simmons 00:05
Hello, and welcome to what is innovation. The podcast that explores the reality of a word that is in danger of losing its meaning altogether. This podcast is produced by Outlast consulting, LLC, a boutique consultancy that helps companies use innovation principles to solve their toughest business problems. I'm your host, Jared Simmons, and I'm so excited to have Jeff Laguna. Jeff was in seventh grade when he embarked on his first camping trip with his Scout troop 1005. He remembers that one of his temples broke and he fixed it in the dark with packing tape, a daunting task for a seventh grader. His outdoor memories include late nights of capture the flag and playing other games around a campfire. All of these experiences sparked his strong belief that being outside brings joy and led him to found kuju coffee with his brother Justin in 2015. He knew Justin's combination of technical and creative abilities would be a great complement to his own wild mind of ideas. You should have seen what we built with Legos when we were kids. Prior to brewing up kuju Jeff was sales and marketing director a good paper a Fairtrade consumer goods company where he led a turnaround from declining sales to national distribution at Whole Foods Market. Jeff is passionate about building brands that have a scaled and relevant impact on the world. He is a graduate of the University of California, Berkeley's Haas School of Business. He's also an avid jazz pianist on the side and is surrounded by inspiring strong women at home, his wife, two young daughters and their dog. Jeff, thank you so much for joining us today. Welcome to the show, my friend.
Jeff Wiguna 01:40
My pleasure, Jared. Absolutely. My pleasure.
Jared Simmons 01:43
So I like to start off in the same place with everyone Tell me what is innovation?
Jeff Wiguna 01:49
I imagine everyone has such a different answer to it. And I'm not going to act like I have this thing in my head that I know. But as we've discussed, you know, I'm a musician. So I think I actually think through a lot of business principles through the frameworks of jazz music, just because I know so well. And I think for me innovation is, is actually maybe the business term for the emotion of bravery. And it takes a lot of bravery to just try things that haven't been done, right, and to be brave to go forth to something when everyone around you does not think it's a good idea. All right. And that's even it, you know, going into music, it's just the coolest things are the solos that you've never heard before. But if you're that person, you never know if people will like it or not. But I think at the at the heart of it, if if you can just say I don't care, I'm just gonna go there, right with confidence, then it becomes innovation. Alright, so it's almost like when you do anything that no one has done before. Without confidence is not innovation. It's just kind of a side hustle or something. But when you add confidence into it, for some reason, I think it becomes innovation, because there's a spirit of making a statement behind that thing. And I don't feel like people know it when the statement is being made. But that's why music is interesting, because they can feel it, you can definitely feel like, right. And so that's that's kind of how I think we've danced around innovation because, existentially speaking it inherently is a moving target. Mm hmm.
Jared Simmons 03:38
What do you think the target is? It's a moving target. Do you think people consciously have a target?
Jeff Wiguna 03:45
I think innovation one is is a target in itself that is maybe not necessary for everybody. So sometimes people just want to hear, you know, at last, right? Just Android, right? They don't want to go off and add a bridge and all that stuff. The innovation is just singing it the way they've always done it. But in your way, right? In terms of business, like being a follower brand, and just just trying to do something somebody else does, but be the low cost option, I guess is innovative, but in a different way. So I think is a moving target for everybody. But I think the way you kind of approach it is you have to not think in terms of innovation, but really have a lot of clarity on what are you trying to achieve. And music is what are you trying to say, right? In business? It's what what's your underlying business strategy behind something because you can have a tactical product innovation, that is superb, but it could take the whole over five year strategy down. And there's a lot of things that can happen there. And I think it's difficult. I think it's really important to not think in terms of innovation and therefore just get a sense of what do we want to achieve. And then I actually feel like the innovation becomes Very easy because it just shows itself. And it should be natural. Right?
Jared Simmons 05:03
Right. It's a makes me think about it. You know, I'm a jazz novice, I'm a guy on the sidelines, kind of messing around you you're trained in, you know that stuff. But it makes me think about when people talk about over playing. Yeah, you know, I think most a lot of the most innovative things that we see and talk about and use on a day to day basis, someone didn't sit down and say, I want to be innovative. Yeah, you know, it's good. So what am I going to create, they were solving a problem. And I think a lot of times when you sit and listen to a jazz musician, you can tell the difference between someone who's sitting down and say, I want to make a statement versus sitting down and say, I want to show you how great I am at playing jazz piano.
Jeff Wiguna 05:50
Yeah, yeah, no, that's it. And I completely agree. But I think what is striking is I've heard those performances, and I watch those YouTube videos. And when someone's trying to impress, you don't, you don't you don't feel anything, you just hear what they're playing. And there's nothing special about that. Because, because you're just listening to technique. And I think that's where when I said in the last question, if you insert something crazy, but add bravery to it, then you're making a statement, and then you're adding kind of a sense of humanity into it. Yeah, you know, every every medium, whether it's business, or music, or any kind of art, is, to me is nothing other than just kind of a material construct in which we can use the human perspective and human creative energy to build something. So quite frankly, if it's really disruptive as a product, like if it includes slavery in the supply chain, that's not because the supply chain is bad is because the people doing it have have that in their heart, they just don't care. And then where it gets really bad is when when the creators did that, but then they you know, for for large brands, they die because time passes. And then there's the next private equity company that comes along and manages it. for them. There's, they're managing it, they're not so much creating it. And that's when you get the cyclical kind of organizations that just do what they do. And they don't seem like they care. And I think as a startup brand. That's the opposite of what people usually say when they say I love your brand. It's really cool to me, versus Oh, that company's really heartless because how can a company be heartless if it's not truly organic? Mm hmm. But so it implies that every company has a heart or not. And I think when it comes to like music overplaying, doesn't use the heart, it uses the head, because you're thinking I want to impress people, you're not sharing what's inside. And I love that comment, because I've watched this video on YouTube multiple times of Bill Evans. He said, you know, the thing that a lot of jazz musicians do is they overplay because they think they need to impress but and we all kind of understand that right? But he said, why not part down and do something at him paraphrase it, but he kind of went into structures that do something that is true, intentional. And the third thing was something that you can build on. And that was because I mean, what is that? It's one that's true. Like, yeah, okay, that's great. intentional, yeah, that's great. But the most important thing is that you can build on it, because if you're overplaying he said, You weren't. So you're going to go, right. And, and the magic of anything, in my opinion that is created is not that it exists in the timeline. People always say to us, if they're fans, they say, I've been following you, or I love where you started. They're not saying I love you today, they're saying, I love that journey, or that story or that narrative, right. And that's why companies can make billions of dollars off movies, because people can't help but get involved with the story. And so if you don't have the heart, people are not going to be able to hear the story inside your plane. And it's the same thing for business. So overplaying is so hard, because it's the human temptation to want to impress. Right, right. And I used to try to make an impression all the time. Because I thought, that's how you get people to buy yourself, overtime of one that is better and more important to make a connection, over making an impression. Because the connection is something that you can build on the impression by definition is a stamp in time, right? And it takes a lot of work to upkeep that but if you build a relationship and a connection, people recognize that their impression by virtue of being connected, evolves and I think there's something very special about that. And that's kind of what jazz improv is all about, right? Yeah, connection between the players and the audience. And no one cares if you're playing well. They just Want to see what are you going to do? Yeah. And then what is the rest of the band going to do that? That's what's cool. It's not so much. What are you going to play? Right? It's like, oh, are we gonna play for 10 minutes longer or not? That's that's the drama. It's not. What is the play? right and right. And that's why it's so cool. It's and you can I think if you go to like jazz festivals, where you can see everyone who's watching, you can visually see their anticipation, like leaning in, when the musician really gets into because they're all thinking, where's he gonna go next? He's gonna go next. Right? And I also think, from a marketing standpoint, that's what you got to do with your customers. What are they going to do next? What's he gonna do next? That's why it can get fun.
Jared Simmons 10:37
Yeah, no, that is brilliant. That's the connection versus impression thing is I mean, that's, that's solid gold man. I mean, and it's words that a jazz musician needs to hear it's words that business person needs to hear, because of just the way you articulated it, the difference between something you can build on versus, you know, a moment in time. I think the other piece of kind of what you unpack there, for me, it in my mind is when you think about human nature. He mentioned you know, overplaying is kind of a way of people trying to kind of impress, and it's human nature to try to show what you've been working on. I mean, people don't understand. Musicians talk about woodshedding. And, you know, yeah, you know, people don't know what all is in is encompassed in that small word, word. I mean, hours and hours Bill Evans used to talk about, he said, You, you know, you can't master a piece without putting, you have to put 24 hours into a piece to really own it. And, you know, a three minute song played for 24 hours. That's, yeah, that's a lot of, there's a lot of playing. So I think that translates a business as well, where we try to sometimes lead with the hard part, or talk about the hard part instead of the part that people care about. And I think you do a great job as a brand of not talking so much about how you provide the experience, but what that experience means.
Jeff Wiguna 12:09
Yeah, no, that's that I'm still thinking about the 24 hour thing. That's a lot. Mostly because, you know, jazz forms are usually also kind of short.
Jared Simmons 12:22
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff Wiguna 12:25
So I don't think too much about how we do that on the brand. Because, well, instead, what we think about is our reconnecting with what we really wanted to try to do in the beginning. And a good example of that, is the ongoing temptation to try to do holdings on an evergreen basis, or sell to, to anything that is not necessarily outdoor related. Because the head thought is, well, let's get bigger. Let's do that. But for some reason, and I feel like this seems unrelated, but I think it is, by staying focused on just the core message of our brand. And our product is probably the equivalent to saying, Hey, we're not here to impress, we're not here to say we were now doing rtds for ready to drink beverages, right? We're not, we're now doing holdings now we're doing k cups. That's flashy, and good for press. And maybe if your private equity backed required, right. But I think what we've done in terms of being focused is equivalent to starting with something that is true, intentional, and something that you can build on. And that even translates into things like a cap table. Like if you start with your cap table, very simple as clean, you don't go for institutional funding right away. your intentions will be more true. And by definition of having a cleaner to cap table for longer at the beginning of a company, you can build it longer, right? The comparisons probably if you start out with VCs or something, you know, it still can be true and intentional and something to build on but but what it means to build actually is so different than than if it was just one singular person who's out there maybe trying to start a business. It kind of goes back to just Are you inserting bravery for some people, it takes bravery to say hey, I'm gonna go build the brand this way or take funding others it takes bravery to say, you know, I want to do that. But I actually feel more convicted that this is kind of the route that I need to take. And I don't think one is better than the other. But I think it's important to know where you stand and do the thing that requires bravery.
Jared Simmons 14:45
Right? Right. Because the thing that requires bravery seems to me to be a signal for you know, I would do this. If it weren't so hard. You know, it requires bravery. But the fact that it's hard or scary is not a reason to Do it
Jeff Wiguna 15:00
correct. And I think bravery is caught as a word as connotation of something positive at the end, right? Otherwise, you would use a word like idiocy, or you just do crazy stupid stuff all the time. But but you got to be brave for the better and the good things. And I think if you do that, it's just kind of like if you're going on a, on a hike, and you say, you know, I don't want to do that hike, because it looks too hard. Let me be brave, though, you don't know what you're going to find if you go on that hike. And that's where innovation comes in, you'll, you'll find things that you didn't even know existed, right? And by being the brave wants to go there, you're just not, you're gonna feel like all you're doing is just being yourself and being brave, but from the outsiders who didn't go there. They're gonna see that as innovation, right? So innovation almost feels normal for the people inside, or just feel scary. But to the outside, it looks innovative, right? And it's important, I think, to understand that dichotomy. Because you're not going to feel innovative when you're innovating. You might just be more tired than everybody else. Or more scared. Oh, yeah, that's what it's like for me.
Jared Simmons 16:06
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. tired and terror. Yeah. Yeah, you're bedfellows and in the entrepreneur, entrepreneurship,
Jeff Wiguna 16:17
I can't even share when we when we went to a trade show, for this pourover product. You know, there's so many people I spoke with even one of the co founders, Zico, coconut water, I didn't know who she was until, like, Midway into the conversation, I said, Hey, we want to sell this coffee thing to camping. You know, they all said like, oh, the market is too small markets too small. Like they all said that. People from smuckers, who were coming by, but now look at the market. It was like the next cool thing. And right, so I don't know, I guess you could say I was definitely brave or gutsy. But the point is, like, I went down that path, not trying to be innovative. But doing it because I thought this is cool. This is interesting. I got we got we got to try it. Right. And and by virtue of being brave enough to go down that path, I think we're seen as innovative not because we were innovative, but because the context around us, gave us that angle. Right? Kind of like hit you know, winners, right? history, that type of thing.
Jared Simmons 17:19
Right? I think it's also kind of like, you know, a jazz trio, the your, your piano solo sounds a little better because the bass player took a Yeah, put it, you know, took a different different route on his baseline, you know, inserted some track tones or did whatever. Yeah, to really make your solo stand out. Yeah. And, you know, because you're being true, you're making a statement, you're being brave, you're making a connection. When the world around you starts to shift. You don't have to react and respond the way everybody else does. Because you're on a true and natural path for you. And things tend to more fall into place, I think. Yeah,
Jeff Wiguna 18:00
yeah. Now the trio thing, I actually think that's probably the best. That's the best. I mean, and jazz, you at least have that connection with your bandmates, and they can maybe see it. Obviously in the marketplace, maybe you don't have a connection, but maybe then the next thing to bandmates would actually just be your customers. You got to listen to your bandmates. You got to listen your customers, and they feed off each other. And if you do it, that everybody wins,
Jared Simmons 18:27
everybody wins. That's why I love music. I love music as a business analogy over sports or war because in music, everybody went
Jeff Wiguna 18:38
Yeah, that's that's cool. plus, plus the people who are not playing, right, that's kind of the most important thing. It's something that you can truly, truly share versus I guess if you went to a baseball World Series, I guess you can can share it, but you don't feel it in the same way people can feel similarly in music.
Jared Simmons 18:57
Yeah, and I think there's a there's an unspoken completely kind of human element of music, where you know, you bring someone from I don't know from from another country and sit them down to watch a nine inning baseball game. It could be the seventh Game of the World Series and it may be of little or no interest. Yeah, but if you put on you know, Giant Steps or, or you know, A Love Supreme Yeah, I mean, I know what they're listening to. But it it's going to get their attention, you know, yeah. What, what is?
Jeff Wiguna 19:33
Yeah, what I watched is john Coltrane documentary and it said that he's he lives like upstairs in his two four home like all the time, and he just wrote it and then yeah, it sounds like what the heck is it comes down and you know, I figured it out.
Jared Simmons 19:52
Yeah, the greatest one of the greatest as
Jeff Wiguna 19:54
well. Yeah. So I think it's just like the I don't know that must be related innovation somehow because Maybe you just had to, you know, disconnect himself from the world so that that he, I mean, again, the bravery thing like maybe because the world does, I think distracts us from innovation inner inertia is so powerful,
Jared Simmons 20:12
right? No, yeah. No. People forget that innovation is a form of change. Yeah. And, and humans are not really changing through theists. By and large. Yeah. And so that is a level of natural resistance to innovative things. Things we look back on that we would, you know, you'd never question their their role in society. They were people were ostracized for. Yeah, when they when they introduced them.
Jeff Wiguna 20:41
Well, on a giant step, saying I think you've probably heard this too, is I heard the story that when john Coltrane brought that chart to a session player, something that he thought he was joking, because it's just like, 25125125. And over and over. So that was like an exercise. Yeah, like, No, man, this is this is a song. And I think that's, that's, that's, I mean, it's just important to recognize that that standard was first received like that, but not anymore, right? That's so interesting to me. Or another one. This is not related to music. But uh, I remember, I was listening to how I built this. And they interviewed the guy who brought Power Rangers to the Western world. And everyone thought it was like, so dumb, because he would buy Japanese footage, find American actors and splice it together. Right? You have a new theme song. But he said, he said at the end of it, like if everyone thinks what I'm about to do is really stupid. Then I know I'm onto something. And I didn't get it. Yeah, I was like, how is that possible? Now? I get it. Because Because it's almost by definition of people love it. than it is now. No, it is No.
Jared Simmons 21:52
Yeah. Yeah. There's a future element. Yeah, built into innovation built into change, built into the evolution of anything. Yeah. And
Jeff Wiguna 22:04
I would also add, I think you have to treat innovation like a jazz solo, you don't you don't, you got to give yourself a time. You got to start off slow guy, tell him where you're going. When you know, everyone's there, then you can start playing, right? And then and then everyone gets there. But at that point, the innovation is done right. And then you wind down the soul, you go back to the form, right? But I think that that early stage of Okay, it's my turn to solo, I'm just going to play a couple notes on these first four bars, I actually find that that time is more important in serving your bandmates. So they can kind of operate with you. Even though you might not feel like that's what you're trying to say, right? You just got to give people time. And I think that applies to marketing. You just can't say everything at the same time. You got to give them like the first four bars to get a taste of what you're doing. And as a startup, once you start doing that, and then you get everyone then then you can do it. But the underlying emotion I find in that is one one patience, but you have to recognize that that your solo also needs to be a story. Well, always Yes. And then the business aren't those like maybe you only have 32 bars tell your story. So can you do it in 32? Or 16? or eight?
Jared Simmons 23:19
Mm hmm.
Jeff Wiguna 23:20
Because anyone can do a solo with an infinite amount of bars. Right? Exactly. But that's that's not that's like saying, well, you only have $100,000 was marketing budget, you got to figure it out. So it's super cool. I there's so many things. Yeah, in that experience,
Jared Simmons 23:35
the thing you're you're pointing out there, in my mind is a is the role of constraints in innovation. And I think a lot of times when people hear the word innovation, they think, oh, boundless, you know, blue sky, you know, wild, crazy ideas, blah, blah, blah. But I think a lot of the truly game changing forward moving things that required bravery that have come through the business world of medicine, art, music, those things were created, almost like in partnership with the constraints of a medium or a problem to be solved and wouldn't look the way they look without those constraints. Yeah,
Jeff Wiguna 24:24
I agree. And I think it hasn't actually been until the last year that I've really valued having constraints. Because it's just too easy to spend money, you know, too easy, let's just do ads. But the thing is, people don't put themselves in situations where they experience constraints. Mm hmm. So I think it's it's difficult to find innovation as a result. But I guess again, if you're brave enough to put yourself out there and say, No, we don't need more money. Let me just sit here, figure it out. Then Then you can come up with something. The other thing I would say is I think innovation, you know, pulls from applying something that applies to one sector and putting into the other. So I was trying to think of cool marketing things. You don't need to get into specifics, but I was, I was trying to think cool coffee and outdoor stuff should not think about coffee companies, outdoor companies, let me think about the financial services sector. And what do they do? Yeah, innovative. And we can do for this coffee consumers. And we came up with something I was really cool. But it's like, if you're a piano player doesn't feel like they can copy a drummer or get your guitar solo. But if you just think about it, if I try to do so, and pretend I'm a guitar player, it's just going to come out differently. Yep, you know, so I guess there's, this feels very normal to me, I feel like you totally get it. But I think the principle is, is the bravery again, but also maybe just a level of humility, to just do something that you don't feel comfortable with.
Jared Simmons 25:56
I think bravery and humility are great, great ways to kind of sum that, that thought up. I also grew up in music and little bit of music training, but I grew up mostly in choirs, and you know, if you're improvising or referring or whatever, yeah, like Ella Fitzgerald, if you listen to her with orchestras, she's not just scanning, she's mimicking one of the instruments, you know. And, and it puts you in a different mindset, because different people use different instruments, different ways. And so you approach things differently, just like you were saying, yeah. So I think there's that complimentary aspect or view of the world musicians have? I think, so you know, you never think about competing with the drummer or competing with the bass player or competing with the you know, alto section or whatever. It's how can I build on what they're doing? It makes something bigger or different? or How can I take I learned something from them or take something from what they're doing to make what I'm doing better? Yeah. And when you determine and look at the business world with that lens, I don't think people have an full appreciation for how different the business world looks. If you look at it from from that lens, that land Yeah.
Jeff Wiguna 27:16
Oh, man, that, you know, I think that that's definitely so true. I think it's very obvious when you're thinking about your own partners, right? But the reason I just kind of side because it might be interesting to think about that from the standpoint of how you look at negotiations.
Jared Simmons 27:32
Mm hmm.
Jeff Wiguna 27:33
You know, cuz, man negotiations are so tough because there's so many human temptations, like I'm going to go hard Bluff, but if you just think about them as like as a piano player, I don't know what it's like to be a singer. Right? I hear being singer is really different when you enter a trio setting because they just think about the chart differently, right? Like the words matter, right? When I write a play, I don't even know the words are
Jared Simmons 27:58
like why are you playing loud? They're literally saying thing.
Jeff Wiguna 28:02
Yeah, he's he said, like quietly. But, but kind of just instead of saying, I'm gonna think about this, because we're always in like, some kind of negotiation. And I have found that I guess just like when you listen to the singer and follow this air, to accompany definitely could work if you're, you're treating your negotiation partner in the same way. But I think it's tempting to lay down your demands, and then see where you can go from there. Yeah,
Jared Simmons 28:30
it's human nature to put your demands out there. It requires bravery, like you said, to to approach a negotiation with that mindset. Yeah, because you do leave yourself vulnerable, just like in a jazz trio. There's a lot of vulnerability in you know, three people's being on a stage by themselves with acoustic instruments making the only sound in the room. That's Yeah, I don't think yet something it's hard to explain to people but but that is very vulnerable thing. And it is it being good at something doesn't necessarily make you brave. So I think when people hear an amazing piano player, see an amazing company, they think, Oh, that must have been easy for them. But there's a lot of Yeah, you know, there are a lot of people who are, you know, exhibiting a lot of bravery to do what they do. And making it look easy, right?
Jeff Wiguna 29:19
Yeah, you're right. I that's actually, I think that's super important. One thing I was gonna add was, you know, we've been talking a lot about listening, and, and kind of responding. When we chatted before I was talking about form, like the jazz chart form. And I think it's important to state that you can't, I don't think you can effectively Listen, if you're in a tree or an asset. If the form of the song is not second nature.
Jeff Wiguna 29:50
You notice, right? You know exactly when it's hard to write the B section, right. So you're obsessed with figuring out how to stay on form,
Jeff Wiguna 29:58
let's say and so Think this thing about innovation. One, it's super important, you got to stick to the form. So like innovating as a coffee company doesn't mean we go and get into dog food. But we have to know our form really, really well, right? Where it's just what we live in breathe. Because if you don't get the form, you don't get Foundation, you can't dance on water, you got dance on your dance floor. That's right, I think for maybe people are listening, I think it's use it as a jazz musician, it's a high, it's a very high form, to get to the point where all you're focused on is listening and responding, right? really hard. And then it's even higher when you're listening. And then you can play like, in five for other drummers and for four, right, and you're on both on different planes while he was knew each other, but it where it starts is you're just learning the chart, man. You're just learning. You're just learning how many bars where's the A? Where's the 251? Right? And you don't really need to do that with people. That's just you working and putting in your your work, right? Maybe it's a it's you getting your corporate experience, you just got to know how this stuff works, right. And if you don't hear, I mean, you might still innovate, but but it's going to hamper you from innovating in collaboration with others. So I most of my experience, and I'm talking about this as it's like, I've gained so much it's not that it's just I've practiced so much. Yeah. Like, I don't like 99% of my musical experience is just practicing man.
Jared Simmons 31:35
That is so true. And I bet there's an equivalent for you know, business people that people look up to, you know, I think that 99% you know, the iceberg kind of thing. Yeah, I 9% of what's going on, you know, you're not gonna see and you've been in woodshed, working out those two fives, going through the box working on making those changes, you know, Pentatonix you know, doing all the, all the things that Yeah, are boring and repetitive and rote. That's what gets you to dazzle and that 1%
Jeff Wiguna 32:08
Yeah, cuz I've never been able to really mold a standard well, until I've memorized it. You know, and if you just think about memorizing Santa, that's fine if you're doing like the simple ones like summertime or autumn leaves, but what we were talking about Donna Lee, yeah, I've been practicing that for a year. You know, just just getting the lines by reading the notes. I'm not even working on memorizing it yet. So I think you you got to get you got to get your chops. You know, you have you got to be in the woods. You got to live in the woodshed man. Yeah, like even talking to you now. You know, it probably sounds cool. If someone's listening, like, Oh, this is interesting. Or if it's not, you know that that's one thing. But if it's interesting, that's great. But we're just talking about something we know. Right? Right. So this is not innovation. You and me talking, this is just sharing the now. But and this is like how often Am I doing a podcast interview, like 1% of it, I'm probably less than 1% of my time. So it's easy to show it. It's easy for people to see it. But I think the innovators life is like kind of Albert Einstein, you're just in the books, right? And you're not even concerned about if it's innovative. You're just in it because you're just passionate, and you're trying things and maybe going back to your first question innovation is in the eye of the beholder is another one of the interesting, huh?
Jared Simmons 33:22
Oh, yeah, no, that's that's great. I mean, that does kind of put a nice bow on everything we talked about in terms of the difference between what people actually see and what they and what you experience. Yeah, yeah. Jeff, any any, any advice for future innovators, current or future innovators, people that want to break break out of the now and do big things?
Jeff Wiguna 33:46
Yeah, I think it's so simple to me, it's figure out first, don't worry about the innovation, figure out what is true and intentional, in the words of Bill Evans for you. Because even if you come across innovation, but if you can't sit with it, and feel that it is true and intentional, by virtue of what he also said, you won't be able to build on it. Right? And true value is not another thing. It's growth. It's built over the time. So if it's not true and essential, then it's not going to be as have as much potential as maybe you might want it to be. I think that the second thing is finding your true and your intentional is actually a completely different process from trying to pursue innovation. And that goes into like personal stuff and everything. But I think if you start there, there's really no way I think you can go wrong because true and intentional, by definition is true. And it's not arguable. Right. And I also feel like that's why Miles Davis was fantastic, because he wasn't playing to impress he was playing from his heart, and you can kind of just hear it in the tracks, though. Yeah. And and like, if you don't like it, you don't like it, right? Just leave it. It's true. Yeah, but it's still there. And I think there's something so powerful about that. So Mmm
Jared Simmons 35:01
that's a wise words my friend. Thank you so much for making the time to talk with me today. I really appreciate it. It's been a been a fantastic conversation.
Jeff Wiguna 35:12
No, my pleasure, Jared. And I think you're the wise one between the two of us. It's definitely My pleasure. appreciate you having me
Jared Simmons 35:19
here. All right, we'll take you.
Jared Simmons 35:27
We'd love to hear your thoughts about this week's show. You can drop us a line on Twitter at OUTLAST LLC, or follow us on LinkedIn where we're OUTLAST Consulting. Until next time, keep innovating. Whatever that means.