"What is Innovation?" Episode 68 is out! Jared talks with Urvashi Bhatnagar, vice president of Business Development, Healthcare at Genpact. They discuss how one can differentiate innovation from finding your 'north star'. This episode also unpacks the intersection of analytics and healthcare and how sustainability is reshaping the world. Are you innovating with purpose? How can you use data to drive better services in healthcare? Urvashi's insights, expertise, and experience will guide you to create a more sustainable and innovative healthcare experience that benefits all.
Urvashi Bhatnagar, DPT, MBA, vice president of Business Development, Healthcare at Genpact, discusses how one can differentiate innovation from finding your 'north star'. This episode also unpacks the intersection of analytics and healthcare and how sustainability is reshaping the world.
More about our guest:
Urvashi Bhatnagar is a mission-driven population-health and sustainability expert. She has over a decade of healthcare leadership experience working with clients to advance health outcomes in underserved communities—addressing barriers to care, advancing health equity, and leveraging data-driven approaches to reduce the cost of life-altering high-quality care. She also holds an MBA from Yale University and a Doctorate of Physical Therapy from Boston University. She believes global wellness can be achieved through sustained and intentional investment in environmental justice and healthcare sustainability initiatives for all populations.
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Episode Guide:
1:20 - What is Innovation?
3:08 - Is it improvement or finding your north star?
5:06 - Leaders: meeting innovation
6:25 - Leapfrog innovations and embedded systems
8:45 - What isn't innovation?
11:07 - The next 'it' thing
12:56 - Healthcare: innovation from demand
15:00 - Innovation: Shaping Careers
18:53 - Advice to innovators
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Resources Mentioned:
Books / Articles:
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OUTLAST Consulting offers professional development and strategic advisory services in the areas of innovation and diversity management.
/This transcript was automatically generated using AI; please forgive any inconsistencies. We are working to provide the correct and more concise copy of the transcript. For urgent need, please send us an email.
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Jared Simmons 00:05
Hello, and welcome to what is innovation. The podcast that explores the reality of a word that is in danger of losing its meaning altogether. This podcast is produced by Outlast consulting, LLC, a boutique consultancy that helps companies use innovation principles to solve their toughest business problems. I'm your host, Jared Simmons, and I'm so excited to have Vashi button to go to Washington Maga is vice president of business development and global healthcare organization. As a mission driven population health and sustainability expert she has over a decade of healthcare leadership experience working with clients to advance health outcomes in underserved communities, addressing barriers to care, advancing health equity, and leveraging data driven approaches to reduce the cost of life altering high quality care. Finally, gar holds an MBA from Yale University and a Doctorate of physical therapy from Boston University. She believes global wellness can be achieved through sustained and intentional investment in environmental justice, and healthcare sustainability initiatives for all populations. Vashi, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so excited to get your thoughts and insights on innovation.
Urvashi Bhatnagar 01:15
Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
Jared Simmons 01:17
Yeah, well, let's dive right in. What in your mind is innovation?
01:23
Innovation to me is a process by which you actually do a better thing, as opposed to doing a thing better. And this is something we mentioned frequently in our book, The sustainability scorecard. But if we are to actually think about what will break the mold, what is fundamentally different from our current state or what we're doing today, very often, you're going to have to go back to the why you're going to have to ask the right questions to get the right answer.
Urvashi Bhatnagar 01:55
I believe there is a professor at MIT. His name is Hal Gregerson, an incredible thought leader, innovation consultant, you name it. And he talks often about going back to your why and asking the right questions. And I completely agree. I'm a big fan of his methodology. But I think essentially what that methodology is trying to point people towards is that quote, "the North Star" of what innovation truly is, and that is to do something fundamentally better, not just design a more efficient process or something that
Jared Simmons 02:36
that makes a lot of sense. I love that better thing versus thing better kind of framework. Yeah, it resonates with me kind of intuitively. But as you unpack that, it really started to kind of take me back to some of the projects I've worked on and things I've done. And even some of the marketing that you see in day to day life where the word innovation gets thrown around a lot and innovative and all those things. And you're right, it gets applied a lot to improvements versus actual better things. That's really great. Yeah,
Urvashi Bhatnagar 03:07
absolutely. And, you know, improvements are important, I will say, I mean, that's something we talk about in the book. But I think in real life improvements are important. Yes. But when I work with leaders, I always tell them that improvements are great, but what are we working towards? Are we working towards something that's fundamentally a better thing? Right? Is this improvement going to ultimately take us there? Because if we're going to reframe this improvement as the change management phase that is taking us in a new direction, then I'd say yes, this is completely worth it. But if we don't have a North Star, and we're just calling it innovation, but it's really improvement, then I would say let's reevaluate where our
Jared Simmons 03:51
dollars are going. That's a great point, because improvement does have its place and its value. But it can almost become counterproductive when it gets substituted for true innovation, right? If you're trying to make an improvement, call it that treat it that way. approach it from that point of view, right. But if you dress an improvement up in innovation, clothing, so to speak, I would imagine you might lose the motivation, and definitely the outcomes of truly innovative board.
Urvashi Bhatnagar 04:15
Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think that is probably at the heart of what employees really hear. And what the people that are innovating. That's what they hear. People are very quick to recognize what is an improvement and what is truly innovation. And when you have extremely talented individuals when you hire the best and the brightest, for example. You want to retain them and continue to benefit from their brilliance by showing them we have a North Star. Help us go there. Direct us. So yeah, I would say true innovation or improvements that move towards true innovation are extremely valuable. From a talent perspective, or ROI, perspective, consumer perspective,
Jared Simmons 05:05
right, right. I'm so glad you incorporated the talent point of view on that, because I feel like sometimes leaders forget how smart the people that work for them are. And sometimes not in a patronizing sort of way. But it's really hard. As a leader, it's really hard to push the innovation, push the innovation agenda and keep it innovative all the time, right? Because leaders are being pushed by executives, who have already promised something 90 days from now to these analysts. And so they have expectations to meet. And innovation doesn't care about your, you know, your 90 day window that you've been given by Wall Street, it comes at its own pace. Absolutely. And so there's probably a lot of pressure to substitute but improvement for for true innovation.
Urvashi Bhatnagar 05:56
I agree. And I would say to those leaders, I would say, to quote some of Jeff Sonnenfeld work, the Yale Chief Executive Leadership Institute, he often asked the question are CEOs heroes? I would say they're doing something heroic. It's a true challenge that most of the population doesn't have to answer or face on a daily basis or even on a quarterly basis. Right. So truly, this is a very hard problem to work on. And this is why they are there.
Urvashi Bhatnagar 06:25
And then the second is that, yes, so then it becomes extremely important to have those improvements define an overall course towards a new direction, as opposed to doing one big LeapFrog. And if you can do a big leapfrog innovation all at once and come out with it. That's awesome, right? There's nothing better than that. But interestingly, someone agreeing is pointed out to me the other day that we had written in the book, and I must admit, I forgot that Paul, and I wrote this. But I want to highlight it here, that actually embedded systems are not as embedded as we think, for example, if you compare 1990, to 2000 2000, to 2010, it's when you step back, that you can really appreciate those big jumps and how the world has changed, or how all of these leapfrog innovations combined with improvements that are going somewhere, have really created a fundamental shift, not only in our economics, but how we live our daily lives. And so if a CEO is being visionary, or the C level leadership is being visionary, then their 10 year plan, they hopefully have a 10 year plan, where they are being very strategic about their innovation budget.
Jared Simmons 07:36
Interesting a 10 year plan. Yeah. So that gives you the horizon for true innovation versus right. Yeah. And I think that's so critical to have that broader view. Because it will allow you to think more in that true innovation mindset versus the improvement mindset.
Urvashi Bhatnagar 07:52
Yeah, absolutely.
Jared Simmons 07:53
That's a great point. I also really appreciate sort of calling out the heroism of the C suite in the context of decision making, and driving processes and embedding those processes, because it's really one thing to know what needs to happen, what needs to be done. And it's another thing entirely to commit resources, time, reputation, energy, to kind of making it happen. And it's very easy, because most of us are not CEOs. Right? Right. Most of us have to live with the fallout from decisions. And it's really easy to villainize people who are making tough decisions with limited information and a lot of pressure. Right. So I really appreciate you kind of highlighting that. It's a tough gig. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So we've talked about what innovation is. And I love that. I love your definition there. What isn't innovation?
Urvashi Bhatnagar 08:47
I would say innovation is not a process improvement. That is just an absolute processing. So if it's a process improvement, that is taking us towards our Northstar, towards some leapfrog innovation, I would say you're approaching your innovation in a phased manner, right? You know, and you have a roadmap and things like that. But if we are just producing more widgets per hour, or doing something a little differently, if we are dropping in improvements in marketing, another AI model, I mean, the market is littered with examples of what we can call improvements. Whether their process or product or you know, technological, right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But essentially a better mousetrap is not innovation. And I think there is a gray area in that. It's always easy for us to say, well, the iPhone versus the old school, like, you know, handheld phone is a real innovation and certainly, yes, it is. It's an absolute innovation. But if you compare between models, that's not innovation, right. Oh, So iPhone 13. So the next one is not innovation. That's an improvement. And so there's there can be gray areas there, depending on what you're looking at that I would say you're improving, but you're not fundamentally innovating on an existing problem statement.
Jared Simmons 10:16
That's so great. Do you have such a clear distinction between innovation improvement, and it's really helpful? So innovation is a more consumer friendly word, right? Decades ago, when I was young, long, long time ago, everything said new and improved, right? Right. Now, improved. improvement was a good thing. It was a sellable thing. Yeah. But somewhere in the early 2000s, that word wasn't good enough, and everything was innovated, got this new, innovative approach to doing this thing. And as you're talking about, you know, process improvements in and of themselves not being innovation, and they have to be in service of something bigger than just what I'm taking from what you're saying. I wonder if there's some motivation from the consumer, being the audience, the listener, for people to kind of get that wrong? Do you think that plays into it?
Urvashi Bhatnagar 11:07
Absolutely. I think there, you can broadly say this, but also I think, in some industries, there's more of a consumer pressure and a demand. Actually, for the next eight thing. If you think about cosmetics, for example, or baby food, there's so many areas in our product space, if you will, right, that the next eight thing becomes extremely important. And so we're there I think, probably in the retail, fast moving consumer goods space. We're looking for that next thing, right. And the pressure on firms is in that. But in some others, I will say, for example, Yale, New Haven and a couple other hospitals that we talk about in the book are doing some very innovative work, for example, in the space of green and anesthesia. I've never heard anyone unless you're extremely informed. And I hope that all consumers are as strong advocates for their own care. And sure, but it's not commonplace to hear Consumers ask for a green alternative for the anesthesia that will be used in their surgical procedure. All right, no, one's tough. No, no. What are we using? Is your formulary in house?
Jared Simmons 12:29
Oh, wow. Yeah.
Urvashi Bhatnagar 12:32
So you don't demand?
Jared Simmons 12:36
Zero consumer demand? Yeah, I would imagine.
Urvashi Bhatnagar 12:42
Those areas that demand is more from the finance side, or from the operation side? Sure. Or even I would say the patient outcomes, clinical quality kind of thing. In healthcare examples, because that's my world. Sure. There are so many examples of where innovation is worn off of demand. But that could be it's probably like, when you talk about the clinical quality world, it's more consumer demand, its patients demanding better care, less side effects, no side effects. You know, so it's masked, but as a clinical quality issue, but it's actually patients saying I want better care, and I want better outcomes. And how can we make this happen? Right, but I think that, in some industries that are perhaps not as direct to consumer facing, that demand can come either from their financial statements side, or their operation side are things like that outcomes quality.
Jared Simmons 13:45
And being able to balance those, because it's really less consumer, more stakeholder. Right? Right. Because the different stakeholders have different definitions of value. And I feel like, personally, value is kind of at the core of innovation. And if you define value in different ways, you'll get different lenses on the problem, right? And so yeah, me as I'm preparing for my appendectomy, or whatever, I'm not asking, you know, I'm not asking the questions about the green, about the green anesthesia. But someone, someone in that value chain, yeah, should have a lens that would prompt them to ask that question.
Urvashi Bhatnagar 14:21
Absolutely. Sometimes it's all of the right stakeholders that are facing the same pressure, the margins in combination with operations in combination with some kind of poor outcome that is sort of motivating people to come together to truly innovate a process, right? Do it fundamentally differently, or develop a roadmap to fundamentally doing it differently?
Jared Simmons 14:46
Well said, that's, that's such an important point or concept to kind of ponder. I'll be thinking about that one for a while. So I love your definition that you've alluded to some of the things you've done and you know, in the conversation and things but How has innovation sort of shaped your career? Your experience? Yeah, absolutely.
Urvashi Bhatnagar 15:05
So my current expertise, or sort of the area in which I work professionally is at the intersection, I'd say, of analytics, and healthcare. And it's really motivating and encouraging to see how sustainability is reshaping our world in this area by creating a lot of data driven approaches. So it is sustainability. But we're just not calling it that, right. And actually, consumers or patients don't even know that we're doing something like this. I'll give you an example. When we think about patient care, in the insurance world, that goal is always to reduce the total cost of care to reduce the burden on the patient and reduce the burden on healthcare systems. And with all the data that we have today, in our world, we really think about, I'm a consultant. But I will say that when I go into these organizations, and I look at the world of data that they're swimming in, it's really important for us to develop a really, really robust 360 degree view of this patient. What do we know about them from a care standpoint? And that's still relatively easy to get, but what can we know about them from a consumer standpoint? Like, where do they live? Are they exposed to any like groundwater toxicity? are they experiencing homelessness? Are there any health equity issues here? Are there any supply chain issues in their area, and when you really create a very robust patient view, it really helps in working together with health systems, to not only upfront of programs that are really going to help keep patients out of the hospital, but it reduces the overall cost of care, it helps in access helps in the consumer experience, or the patient experience, I should say, right? So yes, healthcare is broken, there's a lot of work to be done. When I started in health care, I was a physical therapist, and I've done some public health work in India, as well as in the US, my world because of analytics has drastically changed. And I would use the word innovation. Yeah, yeah. Because we're able to upfront preventative care to patients, which was actually a statement people wouldn't believe before. If you speak to physicians or providers from I'd say, even 30 years ago, 40 years ago, they would say, well, preventative care doesn't make money. And I really try to advise patients and spend more time with them. But like, it's not something I can build for. Right, you know, and there's a lot of stuff that's taking places that I would truly categorize as innovation. Ah,
Jared Simmons 17:51
that's such a hopeful tone to strike in this industry. So thank you for that. Yeah, you're right. There's a lot of negativity and a lot of challenges in that space. But it's important to keep in mind where we've come from, and what kind of arc we're on as a generational basis.
Urvashi Bhatnagar 18:08
Right, right. And going back to that same point about because we have shorter timelines, we view our roles and firms or certain places as a three or five year tenure, depending on what you're thinking, you're not always zooming out and saying, Oh, my God, in 10 years, this will either be fundamentally different, or I can make it fundamentally different, or it's already fundamentally different from what it was 10 years ago.
Jared Simmons 18:32
Right? Right. So that's an important view to step back and take from time to time. This has been, like I said, a very educational conversation and also inspirational conversation. And I really don't spend much time in healthcare. So it's also been very, very good to hear that lens and kind of the way things are being thought about in that space. Before I let you go, I'd love to just find out if you have any advice for innovators and people in the innovation space or, you know, innovative thinkers, absolutely.
Urvashi Bhatnagar 19:03
I would encourage innovative thinkers to not to regard I'll tell her this a little bit more specifically to sustainability because I think it's a very broad topic that applies to everyone in any industry is to design for sustainability and an introduce it as a design constraint. Because whether you think about your world and the next five to 10 years, or even if you zoom out to think about the next 50 to 100 years, the things that made us successful either as individuals or industries and sectors are very different from what's going to make firms successful in the future, and who firms will regard themselves as will be very different in the future as well. And so I'd encourage them not think about sustainability as a department off to the side that provides us input every once in a while, but rather designed for sustainability as a design piece. trades and allow it to actually create those leapfrog innovations. Hmm,
Jared Simmons 20:05
that's such a great perspective, integrating it into the thought process making it part of problem solving the strategy the strategic planning of the KPIs, the goal setting all those tactical elements of bringing a business vision and mission to life, integrating sustainability into those things, both for today but also for the future and understanding that you're moving towards a an unknowable ever changing future. Absolutely. That's fantastic. Ashley, thank you so much for your time. It's been great innovation as a better thing versus a thing better is just a really, really great way of thinking about it. And I appreciate you sharing your your thoughts and your time with us. Thank you so much. Thanks
Urvashi Bhatnagar 20:47
for having me.
Jared Simmons 20:48
All right. Take care.
Jared Simmons 20:54
We'd love to hear your thoughts about this week's show. You can drop us a line on Twitter at Outlast, LLC. Bo UTLAS T LLC, or follow us on LinkedIn where we're at last consulting. Until next time, keep innovating. Whatever that me