In this episode, Jared talks with Mike Ross, Founder and CEO at Juniper. Among many other things, Mike discusses how creativity and fear impact innovation.
Mike Ross, Founder, and CEO at Juniper explains how creativity and fear impact innovation.
More about our guest:
Mike Ross, Founder and CEO of Juniper
Episode guide
1:50 - What Is Innovation
1:42 - Creativity with Impact
4:15 - What Is Not Innovation
4:27 - Ambiguous Impact and Mistakes
12:14 - Innovation as an Organization
13:50 - Experimentation
16:05 - Danger of Separate Innovation Hubs
16:55 - Innovation is a Trojan Horse
19:50 - Stability and Innovation
22:57 - Fear Impediments
27:15 - Advice to Innovators
Featuring:
Mike Ross, Founder and CEO of Juniper
Host:
Jared Simmons (@outlastllc), Founder and Principal at OUTLAST Consulting LLC
Thanks:
Theme: “This Must Be Heaven” by Buzz Amato
Editing and Production: Buzz Amato
Marketing and Visuals: Naomie Oplado
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/This transcript was automatically generated using AI; please forgive any inconsistencies. We are working to provide the correct and more concise copy of the transcript. For urgent needs, please send us an email.
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Jared Simmons 00:04
Hello, and welcome to what is innovation. The podcast that explores the reality of a word that is in danger of losing its meaning altogether. This podcast is produced by Outlast consulting, LLC, a boutique consultancy that helps companies use innovation principles to solve their toughest business problems. I'm so excited to have Mike Ross with us today. Mike is the founder and CEO at Juniper, a Canada based consulting firm. And like me, a former McKinsey consultant. So Mike, thanks for joining us today. Hey, thank you, Jerry, thanks for having me on the show. Yeah. Appreciate you making the time. I like to start out with, with the, you know, the question of the day, which is, in your mind, what is innovation?
00:50
It's a fantastic question. And thanks, Jared. And, you know, I listen to some of the other podcasts and some of the thoughts the other folks had. And, you know, one of the things is definitely true is it's something that's open to interpretation, right? Different people have different views on it all the time. What I would say is that actually my own thought around it has changed very recently. And let me walk you through it. So I kind of like in an effort to become a Twitter superstar, right, I came up with a hashtag at one point, which was, innovation is hashtag creativity realized. And the idea being that there's almost two pieces to it, right? There's creativity, there's something new, there's something exciting happening. But it also has to be realized as we manifest in the world. And where my thinking has changed, it's just on that second part, it shifted just a little bit. And what I would say is not as tight a hashtag, but my new hashtag would be innovation is creativity with impact.
Jared Simmons 01:43
Creativity with impact, I like that.
01:46
And if you want I can, I can pick it apart a little bit. But, you know, obviously two big pieces again, still the same, right? The first is creativity. And I think, you know, innovation, something has to be new, right? It doesn't have to be new to the world, it can be new to our organization, it could be new to the way we're doing things, we could be taking something that was used over here and applying it over there, whatever. But there just has to be a creative aspect of it, there has to be something new happening. But what separates innovation, I think from a bunch of things that are creative, but don't actually go anywhere, is that to do innovation. Well, and I mean innovation in a kind of organizational corporate context, right? I don't, you know, there has to be some impact, there has to be some manifestation of it, that that thing, that business model, that process that product, whatever it is that you have created, has to actually have an effect, or else we're not talking about innovation, right. And I like you have a lot of clients or organizations, we're trying to be more innovative. And I think often they struggle with this definition. You know, and they get into these kind of ridiculous long meetings about whether continuous improvement constitutes innovation or things like that. And to me, like, it's almost like that's a bit of a I don't know, it's a bit of a distraction, right, that the question that you should be asking is organization is, are we doing new stuff? And is that new stuff having an impact? But let me pause, get your reactions that I can keep picking it apart? No, I'm
Jared Simmons 03:09
just busy nodding my head over here. It's, that's exactly the sort of mindset. And that's why, you know, we're talking to David, because I believe you and I have similar perspective on things. But that creativity with impact is beautiful, in its elegance and simplicity. And so it's so simple, that it's hard for I think clients of ours to digest as being good enough.
03:37
Yeah. And again, we could spend hours, you know, picking apart, you know, the kind of examples and stuff like that. But I think what's important about this, and again, I in, you know, in the terms of the work that I do, and maybe this is a good kind of grounding in terms of sort of who I am and where I'm coming at this from, but, you know, I, I spent a lot of my time actually on the culture of innovation. So a lot of my work is kind of gone past the coming up with new ideas and helping organizations to be innovative boards and coming up with ideas for them, and more on creating cultures of innovation. And perhaps that's why I'm so happy with a nice simple phrase, right? Because I think that part of part of this with impact that push is to get away from the endless debates of what is and isn't innovation to get away from the, you know, what's the navel gazing that comes along with that, and just to actually do stuff? Right. And I want to be careful, too, in the sense that, you know, impact in itself is an ambiguous term. Right? You can have positive impact and negative impact right now, is does it have to be positive impact? Well, I mean, if you want to do lots of it, you want your organization to survive, you better hope you're hitting more home runs and you're hitting strikes. But the reality is, is that you learn a ton from making mistakes, right? And I know that's true, and I'm sure that all your listeners know all that stuff really well. But But I think that it's important that it's caught in that in that innovation, in and of itself requires that willingness to make mistakes requires that willingness to try stuff and say, you know, even if we just learned something, what we're not supposed to do, that's still impact, and that's still positive. Right? And so for me, it, I don't know, I'm ready to fight you on this, Jared. So if you want you can, you know, like, you get at me with, you know, what other people would say, or stuff like this. But to me, there's a great utility and having a simple, crisp definition like that. Yes, that again, you know, your clients would say, well, am I being innovative when I do this when I'm doing continuous improvement? Right? And I would say, Are you doing something new? arguably, yes. Are they No, right? And maybe it's new to you, you're putting in a new process that you've never tried before? But maybe they don't everybody else in the world has been doing for the last 50 years, that's still innovative for your organization? Right? And is it having an impact? Well, hopefully, yes. And either an impact in the sense of things are getting better, or an impact in the sense of we're learning what not to do in the future. That's innovation to me,
Jared Simmons 06:02
I'm with you. And I think I think a lot of times the definition of innovation, and the defining of it becomes, like you said, sort of a navel gazing exercise and obscures the opportunity to think in a more innovative way in other parts of the business. Absolutely. So you're trying to label this new product? Or this new service is innovative? Or is it not innovative? Or is it transformative? Or is it disruptive? Or is it incremental, blah, blah, blah, and, you know, your accounts receivable process hasn't changed in 25 years, or your, your finance department is still thinking about things in old ways. That that actually inhibits your, your impact, that connection you're making between creativity and impact, because you can, you can have a three day workshop, and you know, you and I have facilitated those three day workshops. Let's post it notes, lots of whiteboard. He's lots of fun lunches and creative activities. And you know, everything that was discussed there gets negated by the broader culture as a way of doing
07:10
No, absolutely, absolutely. And I think I'm going to give you another one of my hashtag saying, so by the way, I have like four Twitter followers. So this has never, she never read me any benefit whatsoever. So do as they say, not as I do or think that but another one of my hashtag phrases is, how you do anything is how you do everything. And that's a good one. I'll illustrate that with an example. So I had a client, and they said, We want to be more innovative. And I said, Okay, good. You know, I can help, right? And they said, Okay, well, the first thing we're going to do is build a lab. We got to have a lab. And I said, What? And I said, Yeah, we've got the space. And it's over here. And it's like this, you know, kind of big boardroom II thing that they've repurposed to be their lab. And so we've got this architect, and they show me the plans, and they actually started choosing the furniture for the lab. Wow. And I said, I said, How do you know you need a lab? And they're like, well, cuz it's innovation, right? We gotta have a lab, right? And be innovative that this lab thing? And it's funny to say, right, right,
Jared Simmons 08:08
saying it out loud, but it feels natural in the moment. Yeah,
08:11
no, exactly. I'm not sure if I told them this anecdote, like six months before they decided to do it. They'd be like, those people are crazy, right? But they get into this right? And so. And they said, Well, yeah, I mean, innovation. I mean, how are people in this stuff? I said, look into it, you've got this boardroom that you've decided to repurpose, leave all the furniture in there, right? Getting your printer, print out a sign that says Innovation Lab, right? And then just stick it on the door and see what happens. Right? Tell everybody at that boardroom on the sixth floor is now the Innovation Lab, right? Whatever do people come in? Are they you know, and like put, you know, those big postage sheets, right, that we all use the big way with as a cover the walls with those people can write on the wall. So you'd have to repaint the walls with whiteboard paint, like just cover the walls of the postage sheets, that people are people using it, what's happening, and then talk to the end. But the point is, is not that I know the answer to have a great innovation, like not at all. The point is, is that the iterative process of innovation should be used to answer the process of how do we innovate? And I don't think are too meta there. But no, no, no, I'm
Jared Simmons 09:14
with you. I think that that innovation is about in people's minds becomes about the process of creating new things. And I think it it's a broad, it can be broader than that. It can be about how you go about doing the elements of what you consider innovation. And it's funny, because there's a lot of little, there's a big lack of creativity, and a lack of impact in how people innovate. But of course, you know, there's a book, there's a template, and it's there's a model and you know, you do it this way, and you get a lab and you take the people, you take the innovative people and you separate them from everybody else. Exactly. And then you go and you give them a new process. You give them all the fancy things that that they Want need? And hopefully some consultants
10:02
hopefully wouldn't be insulted. But Oh, absolutely, absolutely I, I talked to another anecdote, I talked to a guy who's the head of one of the bigger law firms here in Canada. And I talked to him about innovation. And I said, you know, what are you guys doing about innovation? And he said, Oh, we got that covered. So yeah, really well, what are you doing? He said, we've got a committee. And because I'm the type of guy who says stuff like this to people, I said, You've got to realize how that sounds. Right. Right. You've got a committee to study innovation,
10:30
right? And he said, Yeah,
10:31
I don't know, I get I get a fine, you know, but he said, but we've got our three of our best, most senior people working on this question, most successful people in this firm. And so what you're telling me is you're taking three people who, whose identity, and whose success and who's got a personal security and all that stuff has come from the way the system is currently being run, in charge of changing that system. Right? It makes no sense. It's crazy, right? It's crazy.
Jared Simmons 11:00
But I think you're exactly right, that the the tendency is to take top performers, or people who are not actively engaged in the day to day of delivering the business, and make them be innovation team. And and the moment you do that, you send it back to your comment about culture, you send a clear message to the rest of the organization. That, you know, innovation is a department is a mindset, it's not a way of your problem anymore. It's Yeah, you don't don't think about innovation anymore, do what you do. Launch that detergent, the same way you've been launching that detergent, the innovation people, they'll take care of the next thing. And that that's the day that that innovation dies a little in your organization, I think
11:54
I think it's actually I think you're right, in the sense that it's like almost like you'll have less innovation as a consequence they did before you did any of those changes. That's right. Although I would say I would say that, which is not to say there aren't some times when having like a little separate innovation kind of skunkworks hub, I think isn't a good idea. I think that the right answer is that there's no right answer. There's no universal right answer, right? And the right answer is for you as an organization to try stuff and see and say, after six months, okay, well, we've had this little skunkworks thing, and they've been out there, you know, hopefully, in Palo Alto, where it's nice and sunny for the last six months doing their own thing and spending a ridiculous budget. And nothing's come of it. Okay, well, let's try something else. Right, rather than let that sit there for five years, right? And I'm sure we both have clients who, you know, you're like, well, how long have these guys been doing this for five years. And you go to see the place that I've been to some of the skunkworks II places, we're shooting these nice exposed brick lofty kind of maybe in some sort of, I don't know, rehabilitated downtown core area of whatever city you're in, you know, and it's like, Whoa, and we've got a foosball table and to get lunch brought in. And God forbid you bring anybody from the mothership, the parent organization to that because those people lose, they get lunch, like what? their creative. That was my idea, like, what the heck, right? Like why, why have you? Why have you done something that is not being useful and have not iterated on it? That's the question I always have. Why haven't you? Did you not read the book that you're supposed to read about innovation, which says, to me, at least it have a process of going? This requires two big things. One is information, data analysis. It requires ethnographic interviews, if you want to do that require some some form of an understanding of the problem. It requires some moment of creativity. Sure. But perhaps most importantly, is experimentation. Right? Yeah. And if you're not going to experiment, but how you experiment, then you're just telling everybody that I don't actually believe in experimentation.
Jared Simmons 13:54
Exactly. That's the danger, the the quote unquote, innovation playbook that, that people have kind of dogmatically adopted, that says, taken laughed, put some people in it, give them an unlimited budget, feed them lunch, and wait three years. And and I think, I think the experimentation aspect of it gets will woven into that without good intentions in terms of the aspect that they're working on. But yeah, what doesn't get woven into is the outcomes and one of my big principles, you know, love your three. And, you know, I would add a coda to that about outcomes. Because many times we dive into innovation processes, with this fascination with the process and with possibilities. But we don't actually sit down and say, Well, what should we have? Three years? What's the impact? Yeah, what's the impact?
14:55
Yeah, what's what's the impact, right? Like, what's the what It's funny actually, when I worked at McKinsey, I used to always think that what I would do is a puppet one of you know, these bunch of keys on your keyboard, you never use right? ones on the bottom. I don't even know what they do. But I would pop them out and I would get a new key, maybe that's an impact, right? You could just press. I mean, it's a silly consultant joke. But the point is, is that if you're not having impact, then you're there's no point. Right? So if, you know, three years, you should be able to say to me, within three days, what useful thing have these people come up with? With three hours? Let's put that as the bar, right, in three hours, you with your loft and your free lunch and stuff? If it goes something that's useful, right, right. And that could be a shortened accounts receivable form? It could be I mean, it could be anything, right. But it just like, we, we don't role model, we don't live that innovative thing. And I would say, and I did say, you know, I think there's a lot of different ways of doing this. I would say generally, my, my kind of 8020 rule on this is that innovation, separate innovation hubs are dangerous things. Because it's too easy to get lost in that stuff. Yeah. And it's too easy, as you said, for everybody else in organization to say, throw up their hands and say, This isn't my job anymore. You know, Jane and her team did the integration crew and I don't have to worry about it.
Jared Simmons 16:21
Yeah, yeah. No, I would agree with that synopsis. And one thing I'm curious about based on based on your point of view so far is, you know, we talked about creativity. And its connection to innovation. How do your clients and how do you think about creativity? In the context outside of product and service? Like? Do you have many conversations about that?
16:49
Yeah, all the time. I mean, that creativity I like is just because it's a fancy word. And people get excited. To me, innovation is a bit of a Trojan horse, right? Because my mission is to change the way organizations work. Yeah. Right. And I want organizations to be much better places for people to live and work, right. And I say that on purpose live in work, because you know, work life balance, whatever most of us, you know, there's a lot more living at work than there is anywhere else, right. And I want that to be better organized. And I think one of the crucial missing ingredients, to organizations being good places to be as employees is a lack of creativity, a lack of freedom to be creative. So I kind of, to me, that's I use innovation, that's my Trojan horse I come in, because nobody's gonna pay me to come in and see an organization and make people happy. Right? I mean, some people get paid to that, but I don't I don't have the right beads for it, or whatever, I don't have the hair for it or whatever. Right. So So I say, Look, I'm going to help make your organization more innovative. But really what I'm more interested in is that that change of culture, right? And so is creativity in that sense, because I think that there's a, there's a there's a sense of possibility that come to creativity, right? And for your listeners who have kids, you will know this right? I think there's a Picasso quote, that is we are all born artists, only a few of us survive, right? There's a sense of creatures a sense of freedom that comes with that. And so what I really mean is just new stuff. Yeah. Now, just new stuff. And so yeah, products and services can be new business models can be completely new. markets can be new, that delivery mode can be new, the and it's interesting, actually, because I used to do a lot of work for some reason, especially when I was at McKinsey, I had a lot of clients that were extremely innovative companies, like brand name fancy pants, like whoa, my goodness, they're fancy, innovative, you know, make a list of all the innovative companies in the world. And some of them I got the pleasure to work with. And I'd always get the chance to work with their like, sort of back end processes, right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. And my big thing was HR. Like, I was like innovation in HR. That was the thing that I got really excited about, because you'd have this like amazingly, and actually this I mean, I could talk about this one, because we did this one actually, after I left McKinsey, we did a bunch of work with Cirque du Soleil, which, you know, unfortunately, had had pretty big issues with COVID. And so they're not doing so well now, but we did a bunch of work with them. Yeah. And it was like, you know, one of the most creative, interesting, amazing organizations, right, but we were hired to come in and help with our HR group, right, and the guys who do the accounting and the finance and the lawyers, right, and stuff like this, and help them think about how to be more innovative. And that's always a really interesting thing. Because, in a way, it goes back to the point you made in the sense that in some of those organizations, there's so much creativity, new stuff happening on the other side, that those people feel they have absolutely no right to do that. Right, right. Yeah.
Jared Simmons 19:43
I wonder, a connection between implicit connection between stability and innovation. And there has to be some sort of counterbalance. We're gonna take enough
19:55
crazy risk over here. So like this documentary, like bread and butter, meat and potatoes, No wackiness, right? Yeah, but But anyway, so to me that creativity extends everywhere, everywhere, everywhere the the, the the man or woman who's sweeping the floors at night, right should have the the right the obligation to say, Hey, I don't think this is done right. And if I did this differently, then it would work differently. And that would be better, right? And I want to try it. And then they should be given the opportunity to try it. I went down to South America, and we went to see this big this again, at McKinsey, a big CPG, consumer packaged goods company, huge company. And they said, okay, we want you guys to give us some new ideas, some innovative ideas. I said, How many employees do you have? So we have 30,000 employees, so you don't need any ideas? You know, because like the partner, the deal is looking at me like,
20:49
shut up, man, right.
20:52
And I was like, you don't need any ideas. What you need is a way for that guy who's driving a truck and doing deliveries when he comes up with an interesting idea to somehow get it to you. Right? And there's two things that are required for that. One is he will actually three probably, what is he has to want to write, he has to have a channel to do it. And he has to see that there's an impact. Yep. Which maybe is part of the first one, but, but I like to talk in threes. But you know, without like, you don't need to hire a bunch of consultants to come with this thing. Those ideas exist. You just need to give people the liberty to be creative.
Jared Simmons 21:29
Yes, exactly. Give them the hope that their creativity would will lead to a different a different life for them in the future will have an impact. Yeah, exactly. It's it's creativity within but and when that hope isn't there. Then Then you never you know, nothing bubbles up. Because why bother? And then you have any ideas?
21:55
Yeah, there's a there's a client out there that had this thing where it was like, if you came up with an idea, it was a manufacturing company, right big manufacturer here in Canada. And they had this thing that said, like, if you come up with an idea, that saves the company money. I care what the percentage is, but we'll look we'll give you 10% of the money we saved. Yeah,
22:14
they turn that shit off, like super quick. Because they're given out so much money. And I said to the client, I said, Why did you turn it off? And he said, you have any idea how much money we were giving people.
22:33
You know what I mean? Like, but it was just that kind of concept of like, Oh, my growth is so ridiculous. If we can't be given I said, Okay, change the math, right, like make it 5%. You know, whatever. It's like, what you write it's hope, actually hope and if I can. So I'm going to get on my hobbyhorse here, the biggest impediment to innovation in organizations. I don't know if this is a question you want to ask, but I'm going to answer it anyway. The biggest impediment to innovation organizations is fear. Yeah, we live in our organizations in fear all the time, people live lives of constant fear. They're afraid of being fired. They're afraid of looking foolish. They're afraid of somebody laughing at them. They're afraid of their idea of being booed. They're afraid all the time. Wow.
Jared Simmons 23:17
That's so true. And of all the types of ways of working innovation is most susceptible to that. Absolutely. Yeah, that's, that's, that's great. How have you been able to overcome that kind of fear? I mean, I know you're innovative guy and you do it for other people. I know, your your, the way you run your business is very innovative. How do you push through that fear?
23:38
I'm not sure that I have. I'm not sure they have, you know, he asked my wife and she would say, Man, that guy's he's always talking about fear. Fear of things not going well and fear of clients or like or selling and stuff like that. I don't know. And I guess if I was being bravado ask I would say, maybe it's a question of different fears. Right. Like, the fear of not living the life that I want to lead. Maybe Trump's the fear of saying something stupid? I don't know. Yeah, it's interesting. And you know, you talk about workshops, right? I always say to people, when we're doing workshops, my role in a workshop as the kind of workshop facilitator is to be the stupidest person in the room. Yeah, my role is to have the dumbest ideas. Because what I want to do is I want to create a space in which somebody is going to say, well, that guy can say that. I could say this, right. Now I'm like, Oh, we should do is when you open the box, it actually explodes and blows your hands off. And they're like, that's really stupid. Like, yeah, would that be great? And then somebody else can actually say, well, actually what it should do this and like, but, but I don't know, it's a good question. How have I overcome that fear? I don't know that I have, like, I live in fear. I have a lot of like, I worry about stuff and money and all that sort of stuff, just like everybody else does. I think that that maybe it's just that there's a pressure in me that says, you know, the worst scenario would be one where you Don't get to do things that are different. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's the, you know, you got to almost get it. You always got to set up for somebody like me. Well, we've got to set up a bigger fear that trumps the little fear. Hmm.
Jared Simmons 25:12
Yeah. And the other key I'm hearing and what you're saying is, you haven't eliminated fear and it doesn't sound like you're trying. It's about conquering or, or dismissing fear and more about finding ways to move through it.
25:24
Yeah, I was actually just on the phone just a second ago, the guy we're talking about risk, right. And this guy is a senior leader here in Canada's on the board of lots of organizations really like a well known sort of, I guess, not a management thinker, but like a manager, like somebody who's done a lot of stuff. And he said he, I think that what he said was, I think that most people think about risk in the wrong way. They think about risk assigned to be avoided. And he said, and I don't and then there's another group, he will think about risk assigned to be embraced. Right? And he said, I don't think it's either those things risk just is. It's just a thing. Right? And it's part of the calculus. Yeah, as you're thinking through what you're doing, you've got to figure it out. And how do I mitigate and all that kind of stuff? But it's not, there is no, there's no thing that is risk? And and, and I think again, it's it's this notion of how do you overcome fear? Well, fear just as a thing that is, it's always going to be there. You don't try to overcome it. You just work with it.
Jared Simmons 26:20
Yeah. Well said. That's another hashtag out there. Follow me on Twitter, on Twitter. We gotta, we gotta we got to make sure that these hash tags are captured somewhere in there. Yeah. Mike, it's been a pleasure. It's so much fun as always chatting with you, we have to do these things more often. One last question. If you, you know, had some advice. Some free advice from an innovation expert, to offer offer listeners future in current and future invaded of the world. What what what would that be? Do you want, like, how to innovate advice, or do you want good like life advice? I want to advise you, you you want to offer.
27:12
Okay, I'll tell you one last anecdote, right. And the problem with this one is it doesn't lend itself that will do a podcast, but still it's important, right? So when I was at McKinsey, going into the end of my time there, I sat down with a guy who's like the head of the office and smart, smart, smart, smart guy. And he and he said, you know, Mike, I worry about your career. And I said, What do you mean, and he drew this kind of like classic kind of two axes, right? Like, X, Y axis, right? Any? And he put sort of up near the top right? He said, this is the desk, this is the goal. Right? Right. And he said, You know, when you started here, you were on this, and you started drawing a straight line from the bottom corner towards that point. And then he said, For the last like year and a half, you've been going and you just sort of going wiggly, right? And the lines going up and down and up and down, and up and down, and up and down, right? And he said, you're moving towards a goal, but nowhere near the way you were before. But he said, if you want to get that success, if you have to change the way you're doing it, and I took his pen, and I circled the up and down lines. And I said, that's how I define success.
Jared Simmons 28:17
Yeah,
28:18
the key to happiness is stop letting other people define success for you figure it out for yourself, what is success? Once you figure that out, it becomes so much easier to get become so much. But be very careful, right? Because it that takes work. It's not a kind of like you wake up like Aha, I know what it is like it takes work to pick that apart. And to see it and understand it and to accept it. Alright, that's the other important communities. Because for a lot of us, like forgiving ourselves for not wanting what everybody else wants is a hard thing to do.
28:50
Wow, there we go.
Jared Simmons 28:53
That's it. That's it. That went into on it myself. I love that forgiving yourself for not wanting what everybody else wants. It's it's a that's that's just a profound statement and useful statement, which I think is is rare with advice these days. So thank you for that. And thank you for your time. It's been, of course been a game of pleasure as always, and looking forward to next time. Well, any time Jetta Real pleasure, thank you. All right, take care. We'd love to hear your thoughts about this week's show. You can drop us a line on Twitter at OUTLAST LLC, or follow us on LinkedIn where we're OUTLAST Consulting. Until next time, keep innovating. Whatever that means.