Episode 32 of “What is Innovation?” is live! This time around, Jared talks with Samuel Sanders, an award-winning entrepreneur, mentor, coach, author, and the Founder and CEO of Heard LLC, a software application that helps governments and large companies get targeted and reviewed feedback from their citizens/employees to improve decision making. In the spirit of the Olympics, Samuel also shares his experience leading his company Wundershirt, which sold athletic training clothing to Olympic athletes preparing for the 2016 Olympics.
Samuel Sanders, author of Your Next Big Idea, explains the relationship between innovation, creativity, and work.
More about our guest:
Samuel Sanders is an award-winning entrepreneur who has seen innovation, creativity, problem-solving, and ideation in action at many different levels: a Fortune 500 company, an Inc. 5000 fastest-growing company, as well as incubators. He also co-founded the company Wundershirt, which at its peak, sold athletic training clothing to Olympic athletes preparing for the 2016 Olympics. Currently, he runs Heard, LLC, a software application that helps governments and large companies get targeted and reviewed feedback from their citizens/employees to improve decision-making. His award-winning and highly-praised new book, Your Next Big Idea, is available at www.yournextbigideabook.com and Amazon.
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1:28 - What Is Innovation?
4:13 - Being a 'creative' thinker
5:38 - Creatives and Entrepreneurs vs Problems, Needs, and Wants
7:30 - Viewing as an Opportunity
8:32 - Book: Your Next Big Idea
9:56 - Coming into solutions
11:31 - Identifying what makes sense to solve problems
13:10 - Innovators: Application, Fulfillment, Creating, Solving problems
14:09 - What Isn't innovation?
15:22 - Innovation Traffic Light
18:18 - Controversial tip: bringing in a new perspective
21:26 - "How has innovation shaped your career, experience, and life?"
24:09 - Hobbies to keep busy outside of 'innovation'
25:09 - Thoughts on immersive experiences
26:53 - Advice to innovators
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OUTLAST Consulting offers professional development and strategic advisory services in the areas of innovation and diversity management.
/This transcript was automatically generated using AI; please forgive any inconsistencies. We are working to provide the correct and more concise copy of the transcript. For urgent needs, please send us an email.
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Jared Simmons 00:05
Hello, and welcome to What Is Innovation. The podcast that explores the reality of a word that is in danger of losing its meaning altogether. This podcast is produced by OUTLAST Consulting LLC, a boutique consultancy that helps companies use innovation principles to solve their toughest business problems. I'm your host, Jared Simmons, and I'm so excited to have Samuel Sanders.
Jared Simmons 00:29
Samuel Sanders is an award-winning entrepreneur who has seen innovation, creativity, problem-solving, and ideation in action at many different levels, Fortune 500 companies, INC 5000 fastest growing companies as well as incubators. He also co-founded the company Wundershirt, which at its peak sold athletic clothing to Olympic athletes preparing for the 2016 Olympics. Currently, he runs Herd LLC, a software application that helps governments and large companies get targeted and reviewed feedback from their citizens and employees to improve decision-making. His award-winning and highly praised new book, Your Next Big Idea is available at www.yournextbigideabook.com and Amazon. Samuel, welcome to the show, my friend.
Samuel Sanders 01:15
Hey, it's great to be here. Thank you so much for having me, Jared.
Jared Simmons 01:18
I'm excited about the conversation. Really cool things and I've seen a lot of interesting things like I can't wait to dive in.
Samuel Sanders 01:25
Yeah. That's gonna be great.
Jared Simmons 01:28
So tell me, what is innovation.
Samuel Sanders 01:32
Okay, to me, innovation is creativity put to work. What I mean by that is there are multiple different steps in the innovation process. To start the innovation process, it starts with ideas, something creative, and then putting those creative ideas through a process to make it turn into an innovation. As you mentioned, I've watched innovation at these large Fortune 500 companies working in business development, looking at how they grow, and trying to see how they're looking at big ideas. Then Inc 5000, the fastest-growing company, I worked in their R&D sector. I'm looking at how they're thinking about new products, what are they talking about. Then as an entrepreneur, myself, I've seen this from the individual startup perspective, and they all like to look at it a little bit differently. When it comes down to it, it's taking those creative ideas and putting them into a process, putting them to work. When it comes down to it, when I try to explain this to people, the first step I always tell people is you need to look out for those problems, needs, and wants that people face. If they're facing a problem, there's a really good chance there's like something you could solve there potentially, then we'd move into this innovation process. Needs, which I think is actually interesting, because when you think about needs, you always think about like water, air, like things we need, right? I call those functional needs but there are also auxiliary needs, which I think is interesting that people don't talk about a lot. That would be something more like, I really need a glass of water next to my bed, like before I go to sleep, and we're just so programmed into these patterns like that, it feels like I need this, I can't sleep if I don't do this. If there are any issues there, then that can be a real profitable need to fulfill, right? Then once like concerts, but people desire stuff like that.
Jared Simmons 03:25
Yeah, that's great. That's a great framework. I love the idea of creativity put the work because it's almost got a juxtaposition built into it. When people think of "creative types", they think of this ethereal, not necessarily value-creating, sort of, "oh, this is nice, you know, the painted a wall. Yeah, no, that's a nice mural or whatever. Yeah. What does it do for society?" Combining that concept of creativity and work is important. I think you're right, that's at the heart of innovation. Solving these problems and identifying the needs that you're talking about. You can't do that with a sort of standard way of viewing the world and a standard way of thinking about building products.
Samuel Sanders 04:12
I agree. It's really tricky because not everyone is set up to be a creative thinker. Part of that is a little bit about how we teach creativity. Not everybody is set up to be the person that can push through those types of projects. That's often why it's great for teams, some individuals do both. You can learn either side of it, I believe. I think like part of the disconnect, though, is when we talk about innovation, we're always talking about the big successful players that already did it and that's why podcasts like these are great because then we can dive in and figure out what that means. When you teach it in school, they'll talk about entrepreneurship and they talk about Apple or Facebook. They've already made it, you're talking about how they came up with the idea, the creative process behind it, the garage where they built the business. I think that does us a disservice because it leaves a lot of people confused. How exactly do I do this? Paperwork is important, for starting an LLC and stuff like that but what's more important is getting your first customer, how do you get this out there? There's a disconnect there. I think if we did a better job talking about creativity and talking about putting it to work, we would be able to find more entrepreneurs and creatives out there.
Jared Simmons 05:35
Yeah, I think you're exactly right. How do you go about helping creatives and potential entrepreneurs connect to this idea of problems needs and wants? Do you have a framework because you talked about paperwork for an LLC and people can wrap their heads around that?
Samuel Sanders 05:54
There are a couple of different words, but two main ones, I tell people quick tricks to find those ideas. The first is annoy, if something is annoying, someone like casually, to our friends will talk like, 'this was so annoying, (it) happened to me today,' something like that. That's a trigger word in my head, where I'm like, 'oh, there's a problem there' that this is annoying someone they'll potentially pay to solve that problem. The second word I look out for is hate. Hate has a lot of momentum to it, it's such a strong word. If somebody says, I hate this, then it may not be the problem. They're saying straight up to you, but there's something there, that would be very profitable to solve. If they get that kind of reaction, that kind of emotion. People don't like to be put in uncomfortable situations. If you can find those annoyances, find those hates, find those wishes, like, I wish that I could do something. Those are the trigger words to look out for. As someone who is maybe really good at pushing the process through, but not as good as finding that idea. I encourage you to look out for those words because you'll be surprised how many different problems you may be able to discover there.
Jared Simmons 07:11
That's great. That's great advice, phenomenal advice. Those are words that we almost hear so often that they fade into the background. But if you can retune your ear to be more sensitive to those words, they do sound like great markers for an opportunity.
Samuel Sanders 07:29
Yeah, and I think it's uncomfortable a little bit because nobody likes to feel and think about negative things. But like you said, opportunity, that's the mindset we need to be in, we need to be like, there's a problem here that potentially there's an opportunity to solve, we can make the world a little better. If we can get into that kind of mindset where we notice these things, and then look at them as opportunities to potentially solve. It may not even be you maybe someone else or but at least you're getting your ideas out there and trying to make a little bit of an impact.
Jared Simmons 08:03
The other thing you were pointing out is you don't have to find one idea, and then force it to be big and work that one idea until it's something. Sometimes we put too much pressure on that first insight or the first thought that they have. That's why I love the title of your book, your next big idea because it's just already put out there, there's gonna be another one, the ideas are very plentiful. That's why I like your framework as well.
Samuel Sanders 08:31
Yeah, there's such a strong feeling with your first really big idea. It's almost like your baby. It's hard from a mental perspective to take feedback from a non-biased point of view because this is yours. This is your first... I think but one of the most important parts of the idea process. Innovation is like sharing, getting that feedback, getting you those different changes into your idea to make sure that it's something that works. That's hard when you look at the end idea and feel attached to it. There's nothing wrong with being passionate about your ideas, but it's just you have to be open to the different appropriate kinds of changes that might make it and push it forward.
Jared Simmons 09:17
A lot of times people get a little, as you said, attached. As a founder and entrepreneur myself, I understand that attachment. I think for me, I try to find being attached to the how. I try to be more attached to the problem I'm trying to solve. Yeah, because that is something that won't go away until you solve it. But I feel like a lot of times when people associate the idea, or the concept or the problem, need or want that they identify with, as they move into solution, that's where the attachment forms are on the solutions instead of the problem.
Samuel Sanders 09:54
Yeah, I agree with you on that. One of the things I talked about in my book wasn't Australia. But I always throw out there to people is, there's one problem you're looking to solve, but there may be hundreds of solutions out there that make sense. Like, even like something like, Oh, you know, I can't get to work today, there's so much No, well, you know, you could potentially walk or we could ask, you know, the government put down more salt, there's like a lot of different things. But one of the things I always say is, think about how you would combine solutions because so often, we're just stuck on our solution that we will just shove away the other types of solutions. But if you can either meet in the middle or even like, do a combination of both of the ideas together, oftentimes that can lead to something that would help even more people.
Jared Simmons 10:41
That's great.
Samuel Sanders 10:42
Yeah, I think combining solutions is something that's kind of, you know, it's really important, but not thought about often enough,
Jared Simmons 10:47
well said, Well said, and I think, built into that as well is this, and I talked about it all the time to buy time. But this concept of newness and innovation, and when I look at your definition of creativity put to work, you don't say, a new idea that you came up with yourself. But the door, yeah, you can identify these opportunities, you can identify existing solutions in different domains, and bring them into your domain to solve those problems or, or, you know, alleviate those needs, you know, address those wants. So, I think that's important as well, is that your definition leaves room for, you know, you don't have to be the inventor of a new thing. Yeah,
Samuel Sanders 11:28
yeah. I think that's true. And everybody has different passions and things that they want to do. And being an entrepreneur within an organization, starting something new, also really great. You could sell something for a lot of people, you can be creative outside and your own thing. I don't want to limit the opportunities where you can apply these ideas. Yeah, yeah, you have to do them in a place that's comfortable. And then also where there's an appropriate amount of risk. Like, if you're looking to start something new, it may make sense to do it within a company, you can get a lot of experience, you could train, you know, you'll have that kind of backing. And then maybe next time, you can go and do it on your own. But it's all about that identification of what we think makes sense to solve that problem. And then you know, a little bit of what you want to get out of it.
Jared Simmons 12:15
Exactly, exactly. It's easy for people to just kind of turn on the television and see things about innovation and think, Oh, I need to quit my job, you know, move to one of seven cities. Yeah, yeah. We can get my series A funding and do my this and do that and all those other things, that's a way to do it but it's just one way. There are so many innovative thinkers, innovative doers, in the biggest dodgiest companies, and they love their work, they love what they do. They love their job. I think the beauty of your framework and structure and thinking about innovation is that it can apply to anyone in any domain with any goal. Yeah. And that's so important right now for people to hear. Because this sort of Rockstar, unicorn creator, entrepreneur, somehow become the definition of what innovation is. And I think there's a lot of danger in that.
Samuel Sanders 13:09
I agree with that. And part of the thing with the book that I wrote is it wasn't for the rock star entrepreneur, it was to give the person that's not really sure if they can be creative, or just someone looking to improve their skills, more information about how to go about that process, how experts go about that process so that they can apply themselves. The more people we have thinking like innovators thinking like creative thinking, like problem solvers, the better we're going to be solving problems. And individually, it's fulfilling to problems, you know, it feels it feels really good to feel like your work means something and so that aspect, then I need to get serious funding, and then I need to go all that down that route, quit my job, like you said, works for some people, but it's not the only path. What's most important is that you're feeling fulfilled and creating those, those changes, solving those problems, and getting yourself out there.
Jared Simmons 14:02
Well said. So we talked a bit about what innovation is, can you share with me, what, in your mind, isn't innovation?
Samuel Sanders 14:12
Yeah. So innovation isn't a priority enough? Hmm. Let me explain this. Often we talk about innovation, it's got this very buzzwordy type of feel to it. We say it's really important, we put all of our press towards innovation, especially like a lot of business press. But when it comes down to it, oftentimes, it's not a real priority. Here's why innovation and really pushing towards innovation is risky as a business. It's much easier to take what you know and grow it versus trying to really break into the industry. So a lot of companies don't put the appropriate amount of time and then as you know, individuals, we often work with what we know. So it's like, Alright, we have our job, you know, this is our safe kind of workload. Taking on something new, you know, that's a little bit of risk, and organizing that all together can cause risk. And so it's, it's hard. Yeah. So a lot of companies just don't do it. And there are big ones that really make sure that they focus on r&d. And there are small companies that are really, you know, innovative. But a lot of times, it's not a priority. And that's why a lot of companies get left behind. Hmm, I have this rule that I wrote about in the book, and it's called, like the innovation traffic light. And basically, it splits the innovation process into a couple of different levels. So if you really haven't innovated in 10 years, that's a red light, like, you're definitely in trouble of becoming a thing of the past, like you need to continually to innovate, to stay ready. And with the your industry, if you're looking at like five to 10 years, that's a yellow light. So it's like you're in danger, you might still be able to, you know, you should really be thinking about this innovation process and doing it but you might still be able to be okay, right? The interesting part about the traffic light, which I think is the most fun to me is like the green light and the turn signal. So the green light is two and a half years to five years where if you have a good idea, just because we just changed, if this is going to lead to more long-term profitability leads more innovation, I think you should still take the green light. And even if it's something that's brand new, a new person coming on, you know, you can have the turn signal, if this is an idea that we think could make a lot of sense, you know, the turn. So I think companies so often are just setting the process, and they don't want to do that change. And it's expensive and risky, but the potential reward is very large, and the risk of not innovating is also pretty large. It just is hard to feel that risk on a day-to-day basis.
Jared Simmons 16:42
Yes, yes, yes, exactly. The pain of the change is immediate, yeah. And palpable, but the pain of regret. Five years from now, it's hard to help someone feel that in the same way. But it's just as real, it's just not as tangible. And so like anything else that requires discipline, exercising, eating, right, all those things, there's pain associated with, you know, with those things, but it's the people that can internalize what it's gonna look like down the road, what lies ahead. And I think a traffic light is a great way for people to sort of distance themselves intellectually from that problem, right? So that they can have some space to make a more rational decision because innovation often becomes an irrational and emotional thing, right? We like to put processes together and instructors and talk about numbers and, you know, projections and charts and tables, but at the end of the day, it's either someone has a stomach to do this, or they don't, right, because you don't have you know, we've got centuries of data that say, when you eat these things, you live longer, you don't eat these things you don't live as long when you exercise you live, you know, like we've got, yeah, lots of data. But there's no limit, no two innovations are alike, right. And they don't happen in the same timeframe. They don't happen in the same company. So you end up having to take a leap of faith. Right. And I think your traffic light is a good sort of grounding way to help people take that leap, or at least rationalize an irrational decision a bit.
Samuel Sanders 18:18
Yeah. I think one other tip, also that I like to tell people, which is a little bit controversial, but I think it works really well for my past batch bid meetings and teams, is to bring in someone that just like, doesn't really know, almost anything. And so what they're gonna do is they're going to ask questions, and they're gonna be like, why are we doing that? And oftentimes, a lot of people will just be like, well, that's just the way we've been doing that. But that's the red flag that's like, oh, we're just doing it because we've been doing it that way. That's where the innovation might need to be happening. Oftentimes, I love bringing in someone that's kind of new to the problem, thinking about it from a fresh perspective, maybe even different fields. It could slow down the meeting because there are a lot of questions, but it makes us think more critically about what we're doing and why we're doing it.
Jared Simmons 19:08
Yeah, yeah. And I agree, it's, it may slow down, it slows down the meeting, but it speeds up the path to the real solution. And that's the hard part for people to wrap their heads around. Right, right, those naive questions, start to break down some of those assumptions, walls that you've built up around that are capping your capability to innovate. If you always have everybody in the office five days a week, because you've always had everybody in the office five days a week, that's someone else's opportunity. This is why people tend to jump to startups and all these other external ways of disruption. Another word that if I have another podcast one day, it'll be what is disruptive,
Samuel Sanders 19:51
as great,
Jared Simmons 19:52
but as people they tend to look at startups and entrepreneurs as the sources of disruption, but I mean, you can Look at Wall Street Journal and LinkedIn news. disruption is happening every day inside gigantic old companies. When you see someone say that, you know, we're going to introduce a hybrid work model, even if every other company in the fortune 500 has already done it within that company, because they've only ever done it another way that is innovation, somebody, whether they were pushed into it or not, that's going to require the same framework around problems needs and wants, in terms of how to make this fit your culture, your industry, your people, your way of working. You don't have to quit you just try to emphasize that. I mean, that's why I love your book is innovation is for everyone everywhere. You don't have to make some radical life change. Just start thinking more innovatively and deliver impact.
Samuel Sanders 20:52
Yeah, I agree with that. And that creative adaptation that you talked about? Where even if there are other people, yeah. Other people looking at doing those changes, it can really disrupt the process and feel like a really big step forward. Innovation everywhere. Let's do it.
Jared Simmons 21:11
Everyone everywhere. Oh, everyone, everyone, debates. So how has innovation sort of shaped your career and your experience? I know you're an expert in it, but how has it actually shaped your life?
Samuel Sanders 21:24
Yeah, I think it's really made me hone in on the thirst to be more curious, hi, love these new innovations. A lot of times, I'm not even involved in certain types of innovations, like I have a business background. A science-based innovation would not be something that I can personally contribute from a scientific perspective. I love the Curiosity aspect of it. I love the way that we're looking at new problems. It just makes me more excited about the work I do. It is just like a new, exciting problem almost every day that you can just take a look at or read about, or even like a longer-term problem you're working on, it feels like a really great project. So, I think this idea of innovation when broken down to creativity at work, and this problem needs and wants process, can feel really fulfilling and, you know, helped make me happier in my career, I guess.
Jared Simmons 22:18
That's another theme I've gleaned from talking to so many great innovators like you is the 'practice what you preach.' Yeah, this innovation thing is not just something that's out there that you're putting on other people, it is a way of thinking and viewing the world in a way of operating. That's inspiring and it's contagious and it's engaging. It's really something that I think is probably part of your success with it is that you actually live this stuff.
Samuel Sanders 22:46
Yeah, and I don't think it's so as foreign as often people believe, you can take these kinds of philosophies and apply them to your work. It just takes kind of that almost like that lightbulb, so I guess, yeah, that's a bad example. It takes that click to get the f thought process around about, oh, how does this work? Then you can apply it in instruction to what you do. It's definitely... I think it's more fulfilling, I think it's something that provides makes work more entertaining and just helps solve really big problems.
Jared Simmons 23:23
Yeah, and it also gives you a sort of a way to start building the muscle memory and the skill set. If it is your goal, you're working at a job and with the goal of quitting that job in a few years to start your own thing, it shows you I think your framework and your book show you that you can start preparing for that next innovative thing by thinking innovatively today at what you do whatever it is and applying the principles in the way of thinking so that you know, you start to build that muscle memory.
Samuel Sanders 23:55
Yeah, and it's important to continue that learning process to like it never stops you just want to continue you know, taking in more information, the more information you can take in the better off you are a couple of years down the line when you go to make that jump.
Jared Simmons 24:07
Yeah, yeah, exactly. What do you do when you're not innovating? What kind of hobbies keep you busy?
Samuel Sanders 24:13
So I'm a big board game fan. I love games. I just think they're really fun and the other how they have is I'm a big amusement park enthusiast
Jared Simmons 24:22
Oh wow.
Samuel Sanders 24:22
So I'm like all about that thrill on the roller coaster stuff like that. I like games because it's involved creative storytelling where I'm playing you know, in this world and you have a lot of board games that can do that and really innovative ways. Oh, yeah, there are a lot of also books you when I read that do that it really innovative ways as well. I just love thrills so yeah being a visa visor.
Jared Simmons 24:51
Your energy is, you know, again, I was not surprised to hear you say you like amusement parks Kind of kinetic energy about you. I think that's probably also something that people factor into the way they innovate, you know? Do you like immersive experiences, like through the gaming that sort of adrenaline rush and to have that sort of kinetic aspect to it, as evidenced through the amusement parks, and that shows up and how you do what you do?
Samuel Sanders 25:23
Yeah. It's also like, the cool thing about amusement parks is it's basically pushing your body to the limit to see how it feels. Obviously, if it made your body feel bad, they would not put it in and what they end up creating like to, you know, make the stomach drop feeling, you know, the wind through your hair, all that stuff. It's really cool stuff and pushing the limits in business as well. You know, it's one of those things where you think about, like, can I break this status quo in a positive way that's gonna make people you know, have those kinds of positive feelings? I never really thought about it until you started mentioning it. Now I'm like, Oh, you know what, I do see that?
Jared Simmons 26:03
Yeah, it's a great kind of documentary series. On the Disney Imagineers. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's on Disney. Plus, it's six or seven episodes, but they talk about how they conceive that the parks and they build the experiences and how they make them immersive and all the trouble they go through to years and years of, you know, design and development and insights to create that stomach drop moment when you know, like, you just saw someone else get off this ride, you know, you're not gonna die. But yeah, they still find a way to create this visceral for half-second. And yeah, like, yeah, that's what people live for is that they have second of terror. And then, and then the release of being okay. And so I thought it was really interesting, kind of watching that that series on how they go about building that a lot of innovation insights in that as well. Any advice, Samuel, for innovators? I know, we've talked about different things, but any specific advice for innovators out there?
Samuel Sanders 27:00
Yeah, I would say that if you're too comfortable at any moment, then you need to start to make a change, whether that's like, learn something new, try something new. The moment you get very habitual and comfortable, and your habits, the moment that your brain goes on autopilot a little bit. So I definitely encourage if you're feeling that way, you know, it doesn't have to be a huge step immediately. It could be something as simple as you know, taking an online course with your free time, learn about something new, like something that just triggers the brain in a new and challenging way where you're not necessarily I know this, and I'm just doing this over and over, you know, get out of that comfortable feeling. And the more you do it, the more you'll start to crave it, you'll be like, Oh, I want to try and you know, keep learning something new. I want to keep trying something new. So if you're in that uncomfortable feeling that I would say you know, just re-examine, see if there's something little, you know, start little that you can change, do five-minute videos, the lessons and stuff like that, that can, you know, start to trigger that process of me enjoying the uncomfortable feeling and really learning and trying to get a better sense about yourself and innovation as well.
Jared Simmons 28:03
That's wonderful. That's a piece of great advice. I want to play that this afternoon from YouTube and learn about something. That's a great thought, my friend. Thank you for the time. It's been a lot of fun. I just flew by it really enjoyed talking with you.
Samuel Sanders 28:21
Yeah, it's been great. This has been a really productive conversation. I've really enjoyed it.
Jared Simmons 28:27
Fantastic. Your book, Your Next Big Idea is out already.
Samuel Sanders 28:33
Yep. It is out now. yournextbigideabook.com and Amazon.
Jared Simmons 28:38
I'm gonna pick up a copy. I'm excited to have met you. It always gives me another context on the book so thank you for your time. Thank you for your insights and I look forward to staying in touch.
Samuel Sanders 28:52
Yeah, we'll definitely stay in touch.
Jared Simmons 28:53
Sounds great.
Samuel Sanders 28:54
Thank you for having me on.
Jared Simmons 28:55
All right. Take care.
Jared Simmons 29:01
We'd love to hear your thoughts about this week's show. You can drop us a line on Twitter at OUTLAST LLC, or follow us on LinkedIn where we're OUTLAST Consulting. Until next time, keep innovating. Whatever that means.