Episode 73 of "What is Innovation?" is out! This week, Jared sits down with Amelia Schaffner, co-founder of the Emory University Center for Entrepreneurship & Innovation. In this episode, they talk about empowering innovation through doubt, vulnerability, and disruption. How does cyclical conversation help innovation persist in organizations? How do you recognize innovation pushback in your job and job description? Amelia's insights and first-hand experience will help you remove boundaries and free yourself from dogmatic biases to keep asking questions and questioning answers at work and in life.
Amelia Schaffner MS, co-founder of the Emory University Center for Entrepreneurship & Innovation where she built novel entrepreneurial culture, thinking, and initiatives, partnering with students, faculty, alumni, and the ecosystem. In this episode, they talk about empowering innovation through doubt, vulnerability, and disruption.
More about our guest:
Amelia Schaffner MS, is an Italian-born Innovation leader, culture-change driver, creative problem solver, and ecosystem connector. Currently, she is on a sabbatical, taking time to be creative and ask deeper life questions. Amelia sits on a few boards and advisories of organizations leading meaningful change, and is a frequent mentor - at accelerators like Techstars - to founders, especially the under-represented. Previously, Amelia was a senior Strategy principal at Accenture, a global consulting and IT firm, where she led a global Innovation initiative and was instrumental in visioning their Innovation architecture. She has been a contributor to the World Economic Forum, and is a frequent panelist on E&I conversations. In her personal life she enjoys deeper inquiry via philosophy, photography, poetry, language, and the wilderness: you can find her on Instagram at Z.Tasty.Life.
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Episode Guide:
2:02 - What is innovation?
5:05 - Finding innovators in corporate ladders
7:00 - ROI: an anti-innovation
8:40 - Innovators and a 'messy desk'
10:06 - Dogmatic biases
11:42 - What isn't innovation?
15:32 - Innovation: Learning, Culture, People, and Improvement
17:05 - Innovation: a colonization
18:30 - Value in Cyclical Conversations
20:43 - Longevitiy thinking for companies
22:40 - Innovation: Shaping Careers
24:49 - Jobs, job descriptions: a springboard
27:32 - Advice for innovators
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Resources Mentioned:
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OUTLAST Consulting offers professional development and strategic advisory services in the areas of innovation and diversity management.
/This transcript was automatically generated using AI; please forgive any inconsistencies. We are working to provide the correct and more concise copy of the transcript. For urgent need, please send us an email.
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Jared Simmons 00:05
Hello, and welcome to what is innovation. The podcast that explores the reality of a word that is in danger of losing its meaning altogether. This podcast is produced by Outlast consulting, LLC, a boutique consultancy that helps companies use innovation principles to solve their toughest business problems. I'm your host, Jared Simmons, and I'm so excited to have Amelia Schaffner.
Jared Simmons 00:30
Amelia Schaffner is an Italian born innovation leader, culture change driver, creative problem solver and ecosystem connector. Currently, she is on a sabbatical taking time to be creative and ask deeper life questions. She is the co founder of the Emory University Center for Entrepreneurship and Innovation where she built novel entrepreneurial culture, thinking and initiatives partnering with students, faculty, alumni and the ecosystem. She sits on a few boards and advisories of organizations leading meaningful change and is a frequent mentor at accelerators like TechStars to founders, especially the underrepresented. Previously, Amelia was a senior strategy principal at Accenture, a global consulting an IT firm, where she led a Global Innovation Initiative and was instrumental in visiting their innovation architecture. She has been a contributor to the World Economic Forum, and is a frequent panelist on ENI conversations. In her personal life, she enjoys deeper inquiry via philosophy, photography, poetry, language, and the wilderness. You can find her on Instagram at z dot tasty dot life. Amelia, I'm so excited to have you on the show today. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. And thank you for taking the time to join us.
Amelia Schaffner 01:47
Yes, I'm super excited to be here. This is a topic is absolutely at my heart and soul of everything I do not just at work, but just in life in general. So love it. Love it. Thanks for having me.
Jared Simmons 01:59
Fantastic. Well, let's dive right in. What in your mind is innovation?
Amelia Schaffner 02:05
Fantastic question. And I think I springboard from my classical and sort of humanistic education. And I think it is about asking questions, just as much as it is about questioning answers. So it's about really interpreting the world around us in ways that are not obvious. So innovation is about questioning orthodoxes. it's about really asking a lot of why. And I think the bottom line, it also is about thinking more like a child. So it's about simplifying, freeing yourself, you know, from conventions, right? Removing boundaries. And again, children ask why a lot, so you have to be like relentlessly curious, you have to learn something new every day, stay close to the ground. So don't get scared about getting in the mud. You know, and children do that well, and what I mean by that, stay close to things and see them in different ways, dissect the objects play with them, it's about also growing into our best human selves. So sometimes, we go about as adults, you know, we stay too close to convention. And we are not being mad. And I say mad in a good word, right? We definitely want to be more playful about everything. And I think that's what leads to creativity and innovation. And I think, again, going back to my classical roots, innovation is a word that comes from the Latin, it means actually, it's two words combined in Novo. So it means like, into the new, which, by the way, was the name of a blog I used to have when I was back at Accenture. Yeah. So I think one thing into the new means looking at things with fresh new eyes, and really not being afraid of looking at sort of disregarding what's old. Right. So what comes before and not staying too attached, and making yourself uncomfortable.
Jared Simmons 04:15
Interesting. Wow, that was such a journey. So many things I love and don't get to hear every day. You are a leader in the innovation space, and have this background in that type of leadership in the education context. And so it's fascinating to me to hear your definition of innovation being about asking questions, and questioning answers, which if you think about today's current educational construct, how children are also core to your description there how children are educated. Questioning answers is not something that gets you an A plus. Yeah,
Amelia Schaffner 04:55
that's true. And I think that has gotten me in trouble More times than not and I think you will relate to that. Right? It's all innovators do? Yes, I think honestly, you won't find innovators. At the very top, you'll find them very high in the ladders. But somehow, I found innovators in all different places and spaces at different parts of the pyramids and the matrices, but somehow not so much at the top. They might be lateral to the top, right. And that's because of that nature of questioning and say, well, we've got up here, we finally did it. And now break it again. Let's start over.
Jared Simmons 05:40
Exactly. Yeah, that's such a great point. I've never really thought about that. I can imagine that mindset is what gets founders fired by their boards, you hear these stories of, yeah, I started this company, I built it. There comes a point where your skill set and your interest and your passion and your energy and the things that helped you craft this innovative product or service, they no longer serve you in the context of leading a large organization. Yeah,
Amelia Schaffner 06:08
that's true. Those are separate skill sets. And I know a lot of people talk about like innovation is about execution. But I don't think that's necessarily it, because it comes later. So those are two separate things. Okay, okay. They kind of need to be complementary, but maybe there's an overlap, but it's not a perfect overlap.
Jared Simmons 06:29
Sure. Sure. No, it makes sense. I think within your definition of innovation, there's so much richness in terms of ideation, creativity, playfulness, this sort of madcap mindset, and all those things, staying close to things. It has a sort of tactile aspect to it as well. You can't be playful, you can't be close to the bone to the marrow of a problem and be leading an entire organization.
Amelia Schaffner 06:59
Yeah. And I think you're right, in the sense that so many times people want to put innovation, well, it has to have ROI. And it has to have execution. And it has to have all these very precise things. But I think that is so anti innovation. And I fear for when too much structure is given to that. And I'm not saying that you need to go wild and Rogue in a corporate setting. It's hard to do that you and I know that very well having come from that. But I do think that extending the boundary a bit wider for the people that have that capacity to question and be a little bit more elastic about those requirements, is very important.
Jared Simmons 07:43
Got it. Got it. So I grew up playing music, still playing music, as a musician, before I was an engineer, or consultant, or any of those other things. And so what you're describing, to me sounds a lot like like jazz, where there's basic structure, there are chord changes, but you're not told exactly what to play. So you can be playful, you can stay close to your interpretation of what you're being asked to do. And you can question the answers, you can substitute other chords. And it may be more of a classical play the notes on the page kind of approach to innovation is the more corporate space and just finding a way to blend the two in a way that allows people with more of an improvisational mindset, to improvise within the construct of a structure that reinforces profit and delivery and all those other things.
Amelia Schaffner 08:37
Exactly. And I think the same goes with having a messy desk. Right. So oftentimes, you see innovators have that sort of, you know, messy desk. Yes. And, you know, Einstein said, If a messy desk is a sign of creativity, then what is a empty desk.
Jared Simmons 09:01
That's what it is a messy desk. There's always these quirks, these things that when you're younger, they are a problem. And when you're an adult and find a way to make that creativity, that innovative mindset, that thing that makes you unique, different, quirky, make that part of how you add value to the world. And suddenly it becomes this this delightful eccentricity versus being the reason you're not successful. And I think we could all do better to question what we're questioning. But it's I'm thinking through your definition, what are we putting our focus on? How do we define who's successful who will be successful in the corporate world, in the business world and in entrepreneurship? And how do we know and why are we bringing that definition to this person or this this organization?
Amelia Schaffner 09:50
Yes. Yeah, totally agree. The idea that success is equated with that top of the ladder that we talk about. Yeah. Hey, exactly in my opinion should be questioned.
Jared Simmons 10:04
Agreed, agreed. I have a similar thought about entrepreneurship and nonprofits where those things have become synonymous with certain routes, or certain personality types or certain causes. And the sort of dogmatic Well, if you're trying to do good things, you should start a nonprofit, yes. Or the dogmatic? Well, if you want to solve a new problem in an innovative way, you need to start your own company. Those sorts of dogmatic things house, I think are really holding a lot of people back from achieving what they'd like to with the ideas they have in their heads or the passion that they have.
Amelia Schaffner 10:42
I agree. I think that's another form of bias. Oh, fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Again, I think that's very strict way of thinking that you need to channel certain pathways with how it's always been done. Actually, to me, those are the pathways that are the most valuable in all, and why should they be less structured just because they are not making more money? Maybe making money is the question, right, like the way that we are pushing for that excessive dogma? Like the word you use? I like that idea. Yeah,
Jared Simmons 11:20
I see. Yeah, no, that's a great point. I never thought about it as just a form of bias. And like most other forms of bias, it cuts off branches of the problem solving tree before you even really get started. Yes. So innovation is asking questions, questioning answers. It's about growth. It's tactile, it's close to the bone playful, childlike, madcap, huh. What isn't innovation?
Amelia Schaffner 11:44
Because I know a lot of people want to associate it with business. So I think innovation is not just about business is not just about science is not just about technology. And it's not just about commercialization, as we've tended to associate this word so much with I think it's so much more. I mean, it's so much more aspirational. Right. So I think it's about solving humanity's needs, challenges, wicked problems, you know, complex systems. It goes beyond these nice, neat boundaries and boxes that we've created about it. Right, we want to put it into this materialistic perspective. And I'm reading a fascinating book, by the way. I know so there's a book that I'm reading, it's called materialism is baloney. And it's so incredibly fascinating. It's from a guy named Bernardo kastrup. And by the way, was a book that was suggested by my son who's he's studying neuroscience and philosophy right now. Wow. And I thank them for that suggestion. I think the premise of that is that we want to so strongly attach ourselves to the fact that science and math and materialistic perspective is the only way of understanding the universe and the world, that we're missing out on the remainder opportunity that there might be more questions to be
Jared Simmons 13:17
asked. Right? Right. Because it favors or is biased toward the sort of quantitative, the questions that can be answered quantitatively. And this universe is clearly more complex than we would be able to reduce in numbers and science and math that we can comprehend and understand.
Amelia Schaffner 13:37
Yes, exactly. And so to tie it to your question, right, I think innovation is so much more than what we think it is. And it doesn't necessarily just equate to progress, the way that we think of it. It's about looking at how can we make a better future? A lot of times the way that we might consider innovation might lead us to something that we think is more of a utopia is more of a potentially dystopia, right. And I think that if we look at it more as how can we think of it in leading us towards more of what we call it pro topia. So a place where today is better than yesterday, and versus trying to think so, unrealistically about creating a place that cannot be which is utopia, right? Place that we want to make. So perfect, and we want to make so big and we want to make non realistically, like achievable. So instead, progress and innovation can make our life better in so many different places already around us today. And I think, again, innovation is not about how or what a lot of times we want to narrow it down to that again, I'm driving back to where we started, right? That's great. It's more about why Yeah, why now? Why not? Why this thing, I think a lot of times we want to necessarily want to do it, per se. And even questioning why are we innovating?
Jared Simmons 15:08
Right, right. And the focus on the how the what the quantitative, executable delivery mindset distracts from the full exploration of the why exactly, exactly. Got it. Got it.
Amelia Schaffner 15:25
I think also the other thing, there's a lot of knots, right in that innovation. I'm opinionated here. But I also think it's not just top down. And intrinsic. A lot of it is bottom up, going back to that child that plays in the mud need to stay really close. So it's about learning. And it's about culture as much as it is about things. A lot of people want to equate it to tangible stuff, products, services. But I think innovation is about people. It's about places about culture, right? So it's about wanting to improve the way that the system works right now, and any system. So that's why I think we need to question just like the static way of just looking at the first innovation that oftentimes we get channeled into, oh, we need to do more of this and more of that, maybe it's about doing less of this.
Jared Simmons 16:21
Right. Right. Right. As you talk about that aspect of what innovation isn't, I hear a lot of parallels to diversity. Yes. And part of the reason that jumps out at me is our firm, we work in two spaces working, you know, innovation, product development, and whatnot. But we also work in the diversity management space. And it's always hard for me to explain to people that these two things are not functionally different, but the way you articulated it really highlights what makes them the same because they're both about culture, people, places, new and different ways of viewing problems and no different ways of communicating and exploring things.
Amelia Schaffner 17:02
Yes, thank you. I love that you said that. Because I often think sometimes innovation, the way that we've come to present it is a very colonizing sort of way.
Jared Simmons 17:13
Yes. All right, here we go.
Amelia Schaffner 17:21
You know, I think it's like, oh, it has to be this. Yes. It has to be science, it has to be technology it has to be coming from the more the bigger, the grander, the more profitable versus so many times, it's more quiet. It's more behind the scenes, it's silent. It's more inclusive of everything. So many times the quiet has so much more to say than the noisy and boisterous and the colonizer.
Jared Simmons 17:53
Exactly. It's such a great parallel. I mean, the way you framed it, because you and I've been in this innovation space in the corporate world as consultants, as people responsible for it. What's the first thing that happens when someone says, oh, we need more innovation? Okay, well, let's get all the leaders together, put them in a room somewhere, and give him a whiteboard and some post it and spend two days with just these 15 people talking about what we should do next and that will be our session. It's so upside down from your definition of innovation. It really reinforces what you were just describing.
Amelia Schaffner 18:29
Yes. And I remember this exercise that we did, back in the days when I was, you know, in consulting, we actually did an exercise where we did both those things. Exactly. So we first started sending out a question on the ground from the more lower level people in this large company, and asking them to provide bottom up feedback, because those are the people that know the stuff that closer to the problem that understand customers that understand the products and the services and all that. And then you roll it up, right? And then you start working sort of in a more iterative process, bottom up, top down, top down, bottom up. It's circular, it cannot be mono directional. Neither in one of those two directions. Right. Right. So I think there's value in that cyclical conversation.
Jared Simmons 19:23
Exactly. And it keeps it from taking on the the drawbacks of a colonial mindset, which we recognize in the social world. Yes, but we don't always recognize the drawbacks of a colonial mindset or approach when it comes to innovation. And your example is very pragmatic. One of do the small group leader thing, we're not saying it's wrong, we're saying it's insufficient. Yes, it needs you have to balance that with the perspective from the folks who actually know the work know the consumer know the equipment and integrating those two things, takes you from more of a colonial innovation process to more of a democratic republic that was designed for America. Yes, we're all still struggling to fully achieve. Yeah, a more equitable process. Exactly, exactly, exactly. One of the challenges I've found with both innovation and diversity, people want to drive it back to the bottom line, to justify investing in it. And when you talk about equity and equitable approaches to things, I'm trying to think about how to help ROI Focused, yes, quarterly thinking fortune 1000 leaders think about the return on an equitable environment.
Amelia Schaffner 20:41
Right. And I think you nailed the problem, per se, the quarterly thinking, the long term thinking is hard to do. Because leadership rotate, there's a certain finished the timeframe that they're there. And clearly, the push is towards that. But they've made a study, right that you look at the longevity of companies, the fortune 500, over the last years, has gone from staying in business for 60 years to going to stay in business in 20 years or less. Wow, what does that say, and I'm trying to remember who did that study, one of the consulting firms, but that says that we have lost that longevity type of thinking, and innovation and inclusion, all those factors that cannot be monetized, have been the ones that we are growing slightly less focused on, you know, so many times those factors happen at the core of the organization in the matrix inside the parallels, once you start bleeding out that talent that is in the middle that understands the connection between the different parts of the organization, those are the innovators, those are the people that are thinking differently, the unique thinkers, then that's where you lose the longevity, I think that is where you lose the longevity. And that is not something you can monetize. Large companies are struggling with harsh turnovers right, because of these very matters. And so I think that you nailed exactly the problem. Is that short term thinking that is so counter, the way innovation operates?
Jared Simmons 22:26
Yes, yes. Well said, that's exactly what I was trying to say, well articulated. We've talked about what innovation is and what it isn't. We touched on a bit of your career. But I think it would be great if you could just talk a bit about how innovation sort of shaped your career.
Amelia Schaffner 22:44
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I think innovation is a constant feeding of one's own self, I think in the sense that it's helped me to stay open to unusual to random serendipitous opportunities. By not fixating on a plan A on a title on a place on an industry, I have wanted to constantly innovate the concept of career itself. You know, I have taken some very weird and odd detours, which I'm very happy in at the beginning. There was a lot of people telling me, why on earth are you doing that? Why are you taking the side detour and this? You know, of course, I've worked in large companies. I've worked in academia. I've also done some startups side gigs. One year, I worked for an art consulting firm, I've taken some really interesting things, by design, in trying to absorb and learn as much as I could from different places to bring that freshness of thinking. Right. And I think there's read off Hoffman, a founder of LinkedIn, he talks about the Startup of You, he talks about these growth loops. And a lot of times without knowing that I think I've operated if you will, as a startup in that regard, in trying to seek new things in trying to find better problems to solve, and not settle in one place. deeper questions of the work that I do, but also who I do it with. And why.
Jared Simmons 24:16
Yes, yes. That's so inspirational to hear, and energizing, because one thing you didn't talk about was time periods. Right? You didn't talk about well, I did this for this long. And then I did that for that long. And here's why I did then that led to this this way. For anyone, at any place in their career, to sort of adapt and incorporate this mindset. You don't have to be starting out on your career, you can begin where you are.
Amelia Schaffner 24:46
Yes, exactly. Exactly. And also, I think the other part that is helpful to innovate is you get into a job right and you're given a role description. Or so many times I've taken that with such a grain of salt and saying, Well, I think it actually is or could be this other thing. And sometimes you get the pushback. But the truth is, that is where I've made it a possibility. So that initial role description is just a springboard a starting point. And, you know, I think innovation has really taught me to try and spot even my own blind spot. We talked about bias before we talked about all these things. Sure. And so many times, I think, innovation, you know, we think it is exactly this. And I have tried through my career to say, What am I missing? I need to try harder to reframe ill defined problems, and sometimes that ill defined problems might have been my own career, right, right, the way that I might have found myself, and I'm just trying to think, how I could use that innovative thinking, to look for value in hidden places that in any organization have been, and frankly, I think there's so much capacity to, if you come in with an innovation mindset, to reach out to people in different areas of that organization or that ecosystem, that a lot of people will tell you what, that doesn't fit in this group. It doesn't fit in this. We talk about silo, I hate that word. But I think it doesn't fit in this project in this definition of what we're trying to do. You say like, well, let me open that door. Let me see what's on the other side, because that is where I might find something that completely refreshes and changes what we're trying to do in this fixed way.
Jared Simmons 26:34
Right. Oh, man, that is so great. It's so great that you can look back at what you've done and see those threads and see that operating mode in the threads of the decisions you've made in the experiences you've had.
Amelia Schaffner 26:48
Yes, I think you're right, you have to look at life backwards, to kind of see the design of it. Yeah. But I think the art of it is those principles. I think, having formed that thinking come also from that humanitarian background. I think, you know, that humanistic formation that is about looking at what is the complete whole individual, and not just looking at these lanes that we put ourselves in?
Jared Simmons 27:21
Right, right, right. Now, as you look for the themes and the principles and things in your own life, thinking about how those might be useful for other innovators. Do you have any advice for innovators out there?
Amelia Schaffner 27:34
Yes. Okay, take it with a grain of salt, right, like, who am I to give advice? I know what I don't know. Right. So the thing is, I think it's about reading a lot. So one thing I would say it seems an interesting suggestion for innovators. But I think that is where you start poking at holes that you don't even know exist. And so read a lot not just about business and technology, read philosophy, read fiction, read poetry, read essays, read epics. And I think that's about letting your mind open span in doubt, like doubt, is at the core of what innovation is, you might be familiar with Brene, brown, focus on vulnerability. And I think that is where innovators are very unique at that. Both are being self vulnerable. And just like looking at vulnerabilities out there, she talks about vulnerability is the birthplace of innovation, creativity, and change, which is such a great quote, because I think those three words are inherently tied together to work progress is truly all about. The other thing that I would say, it goes hand in hand with all of this is disrupt yourself, yes, make it a point. Got it. We cannot get comfortable as innovators. Sometimes that might hurt us at the first impact. We need to sort of whiplash ourselves out of comfort. And really also unlearn. So that is a constant exercise. I think I do as much learning as I do, unlearning. And that has helped me just make sure I don't get stagnant.
Jared Simmons 29:20
That it's so fascinating, because learning, you know, in my mind, I envision sort of a process of building on other things you already know. And unlearning is, I would imagine kind of reshaping that foundation so you can build back up on it differently.
Amelia Schaffner 29:36
Yeah, exactly. It's allowing for possibility. It's also very freeing. It's honestly very freeing to think, again, going back to what we were saying at the beginning, thinking as a child, right? Start where you don't know anything. How would you do it if you didn't know anything about what you already have found out? Very refreshing. It's very refreshing.
Jared Simmons 29:58
Very great and phase in something that is I think about unlearning. Think about, you know, reading more all those things, it really does challenge you to look at the world differently and to look at yourself differently, which will change the way you see the world. So I really appreciate that advice. And I'm sure our listeners will as well. I mean, this has been a great conversation. I can't thank you enough for making the time to join us.
Amelia Schaffner 30:24
I thank you, Jerry, for inviting me. This has been such fun and, you know, I enjoy talking to people that think so laterally and so differently and just allow also that openness to exploring different people and different approaches. So thank you for inviting me, and I look forward to seeing you in person. Now.
Jared Simmons 30:46
Likewise, Amelia Schaffner, innovation is asking questions and questioning answers. Thank you so much for your time, and I look forward to talking to you again soon.
Jared Simmons 30:56
All right. All right. Take care.
Jared Simmons 31:03
We'd love to hear your thoughts about this week's show. You can drop us a line on Twitter at Outlast LLC. Out l a s t LLC, or follow us on LinkedIn where we're at less consulting. Until next time, keep innovating. Whatever that means.