Episode 33 of “What is Innovation?” is live! Jared dives into the Circular Economy with Noah Schaul, Business Development Manager at Inchainge, maker of value chain management simulation games, talks about the circular economy, innovation, and impact.
Noah Schaul of Inchainge, maker of value chain management simulation games, talks circular economy, innovation, and impact.
More about our guest:
Noah Schaul, Business Development Manager at Inchainge, speaks five languages, has a background in sustainable business and works within the company’s corporate and partner management activities. Noah is also one of the company’s master trainers for the circular business game The Blue Connection, facilitating Train the Trainer events, professional programs, university courses and MBA’s. Besides that, Noah is developing experiential learning programs with various organizations around value chain management. As the contributor to the textbook Mastering the Circular Economy and passionate circular catalyst, he is inspiring professionals to go circular in The Netherlands and beyond.
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Episode Guide:
1:39 - Language exchange: What languages do YOU speak?
2:52 - What Is Innovation?
3:10 - Defining: improvement
4:55 - Defining: the 'status quo'
7:37 - What is Circular economy and its relation to linear economy
9:15 - Two sizes of Circularity: Technical and Regenerative organics
10:24 - What isn't Innovation
11:43 - Invention inside of Innovation
13:26 - Learning from natural concepts and systems
14:26 - Finding 'THE Balance'
17:10 - Globalization -- the global viewpoint on circular economy
19:02 - Matching resources
21:47 - Advice to innovators
24:34 - Innovation by Inchainge
26:25 - Inventing new curricula
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OUTLAST Consulting offers professional development and strategic advisory services in the areas of innovation and diversity management.
/This transcript was automatically generated using AI; please forgive any inconsistencies. We are working to provide the correct and more concise copy of the transcript. For urgent needs, please send us an email.
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Jared Simmons 00:05
Hello, and welcome to What Is Innovation. The podcast that explores the reality of a word that is in danger of losing its meaning altogether. This podcast is produced by OUTLAST Consulting LLC, a boutique consultancy that helps companies use innovation principles to solve their toughest business problems. I'm your host, Jared Simmons, and I'm so excited to have Noah Schaul,
Jared Simmons 00:30
Noah Schaul, business development manager in Inchainge speaks five languages has a background in sustainable business and works within the company's corporate and partner management activities. Noah is also one of the company's master trainers for the circular business game, The Blue Connection, facilitating trainer events, professional programs, university courses and MBAs. Besides that, known as developing experiencial learning programs with various organizations around value chain management as the contributor to the textbook mastering the circular economy and passionate circular catalyst, he is inspiring professionals to go circular in the Netherlands and beyond. Noah, welcome to the show.
Noah Schaul 01:12
Welcome, Jared. Glad to be here. Thanks for the invite.
Jared Simmons 01:14
Thanks for joining us. We at OUTLAST, we do a lot of work in the supply chain space. It's just really cool to see some of the things that you all are doing. I'm excited to learn more about it. I apologize, English is the only language I speak so you're gonna have to stick with that one for the next 20-30 minutes.
Noah Schaul 01:33
Probably the one I have spoken the most in the past five years.
Jared Simmons 01:39
What are the other four languages, before we dive in?
Noah Schaul 01:42
Well, coming from Luxembourg, Luxembourg is myself, its official language by now. I think it was formerly a German accent. That's the first one, that's the mother tongue. Luxembourg is quite an international hub so you we you're basically forced always to learn at least French and then German is very close, obviously to our mother tongue. I'm living off soon, six years in Netherlands. Dutch is my fifth language.
Jared Simmons 02:13
Hmm. Okay. All right. What would number six be?
Noah Schaul 02:17
Probably Spanish, I'm planning for leaving for Spain for a year. In September, October, September. I'll see, maybe I'll pick up the language. Given that I know French, it might be an easy jump but as I think I'm fine with five at the moment.
Jared Simmons 02:39
I would bet that number six might come pretty easily to you. If you mastered the other five.
Noah Schaul 02:44
I'll keep you in the loop.
Jared Simmons 02:45
Yeah, keep me posted for sure. Why don't we dive in? Tell me, in your mind, what is innovation?
Noah Schaul 02:54
Innovation is an improvement of the status quo, that makes the world a better place in my opinion.
Jared Simmons 03:00
An improvement of the status quo that makes the world a better place, that's fantastic. There's a lot in that simple definition. Tell me what do you define as an improvement?
Noah Schaul 03:13
Yes, that's why I linked it to the 'to make the world a better place' because improvement for me is can be so many things. You could define improvement with a financial value, with economic value, with social value, with so many things. The intention is also very important, you might find out that your improvement in the end didn't turn out as you wish for but that's also part of innovation. Maybe making the world a better place is maybe one step too far. Maybe we shouldn't even be with the intention to make the world a better place now reflecting on it. Because if you think it could go wrong, then you might not innovate and you might miss out. Probably the intention is even more key than the final outcome.
Jared Simmons 04:02
That's a great point. If you're judging yourself by the outcome, then you're less likely to really push the envelope, I think is what what you're saying. You're less likely to really push yourself to innovate because you're afraid.
Noah Schaul 04:14
Yeah. Actually, that's also very much linked to entrepreneurship in general. I mean, I'm getting, all the time, these brilliant ideas since I'm young, I'm always trying to come up with inventions, some stupid, some maybe brilliant. It's really not about the ideas as much as it is. It's really about just getting started and trying out. Now, talking to you, I think the intention behind the improvement you want to do is really key. I think improvements for me are linked to intention. You haven't the outcome, you achieving yet.
Jared Simmons 04:51
That makes a lot of sense. Tell me a bit about the status quo. What What does the status quo look like?
Noah Schaul 04:57
Well, I think that's very connected to I'm working in big part of my work is working within a circular economy, working with companies and part partially also of universities to create circular curricular courses and trainings. So for me, growing up the status quo was many, many times in a linear common economy that the older I get, I also realize that what what fantastic achievements it has produced, but also what I've learned from early on was that it's many things are going in the wrong direction. So I'm I fixed that a square would, in that sense, then be too big of a focus on on on financial terms on money, for example, that's too strong of an indicator with a too narrow focus. Again, this improvement is oftentimes linked to growth and growth only. And while growth is making sense, to some extent, there's limits to growth. So that's why I think, then that's the status quo, telling me to improve it by making the world a better place. It's then also thinking, Okay, how can we do that, and not saying that we have all the solutions already. But But there is a status quo. It's, it's to some extent, it's brilliant, how we got here. But also devastating if you if you look at how nevermind, it's sometimes it's structured, and how much things need to change to get us on a track, which is sustainable, not only from an environmental, but also I think, from an from a very social and just wellbeing point of view as
Jared Simmons 06:27
well. Right. Yeah. Well said, as you said this, the linear economy, you're kind of delineating between the current an antiquated linear economy versus the circular economy, that is the basis of your expertise, and in kind of helping people make that transition? Do you think that you know, going back to your definition of innovation, there have been a lot of innovative kind of steps along the way to optimize the linear economy, I think it may be that last piece of your definition where you see, you know, an opportunity to take innovation to the next level. Were doing those things in the linear economy, that people did things to, you know, improve outcomes, make lives better, etc, etc. But redefining what that better means for the world, I think is where that the circular economy really kind of, it almost feels like the obvious choice, if that's your definition of innovation, if that's part of your solution set, thinking about how to make that transition seems like almost a foregone conclusion. But can you tell me a bit more about listeners, I mean, I'm familiar with your work. But he talked to us a bit about what the circular economy is, and how it relates to what we know today as the linear economy.
Noah Schaul 07:47
I think you made a good point. And I mean, to summarize my previous pitch, or talk, the status quo is pretty much a linear economy. And then the idea behind that is that we, in the linear economy, you have resources that you extract, you use them to produce something and to then afterwards have a product that at some point, we just identified lifetime, and is of no use anymore, which is then considered as a waste. And, well, in simple terms, I guess the circular economy would really say, let's say there is no more waste. And everything that comes out at the end of product lifetime, is just a new resource that we have to see how to capture that the value of that resource, not only at the end of the lifetime, actually, but across the whole process, because you have this, you know, there's products that are not being used enough or that that are breaking down too early. Because of that maintenance. There's so there's not only the end of lifetime, but there's of course, many things along the way. And at each point, there's there's value to be captured and to be maintained. And then the question is really, how can we make sure that the value is, is capitalized level ideally? And once it's decreases? How can we recover it entertainment? That would be in my few sentences? How I would explain it?
Jared Simmons 09:01
Yeah, it's a massive concept to distill into a few sentences, right? Yeah, that's a great synopsis for sure.
Noah Schaul 09:08
Yes, certainly. And maybe to add up, just for for people who are maybe not as familiar with a topic, I think would be interesting to know is that there's there's these two angles, these two worlds which are Indian, they come together Of course, but to just it's up to us makes it easier to differentiate a bit. What circularity is, does it that has a technical cycle so everything is manufactured, so things that you do produce manufactured and afterwards Can you know reuse remanufactured and refurbish repair and all those, all those cycles and then there's also the more regenerative organics side of the of the economy and of materials, which are more of the on the organic side so they can be you know, used as an as a nutrition for another, another place for another ecosystem and so on. So that's more on the on that side of the order circular economy undated. Of course they are, they are part of the same world. Right. But I think it sometimes helps to have those two. It's called the butterfly model. It's the developer on the golf foundation and one of the leading institutions. And I think it's just a very nice picture to have those two wings of the butterfly. Yeah. in mind when thinking,
Jared Simmons 10:15
yeah. Economy. Now, that's a great visual to help us analysis wrap our hands around it. Yeah. So we've talked about what innovation is, in your mind, what isn't innovation?
Noah Schaul 10:26
I think we've already touched upon parts of itself. For me personally. That's also linked to how I was growing up. Innovation is not equivalent to purely financial and or economic improvements. Because innovation operates within a bigger picture. And that's really what what you said as well. That's what I like so much about circularity, it brings everything full circle, pun intended. Like I like the term that one of my former professors uses it more multi solves many of the issues we have today. And it's that they were able to convince so many different parties and interest groups, and bring them into one vote, which is what we need, I think, to successfully move forward.
Jared Simmons 11:10
Yes, yes, definitely. I love that phrase. multicell. I haven't heard that. I love that, because we talked about multitasking, which is activity bit focused, right. But multi solving. I like that a lot. Because it's much more results focused, you know, you do four or five things at once that don't add any value or solve any problems. Yeah, I think it's a nice clarification. That's a really cool way of thinking about what innovation isn't. And I'm also hearing sort of, in your definition of innovation and what it isn't. I'm also hearing an aspect of one thing you haven't talked about is things needing to be new, or needing to be invented. How do you think about those sorts of things? I heard you talk about transferring things from one domain to the next. But is invention part of your definition of innovation? Oh, yeah,
Noah Schaul 11:59
I would certainly say so. So, yeah, definitely, if it wasn't part of my definition, that I would definitely. And that's again, you know, as I remember myself, as a young boy, inventing banana peeler, completely trivial, you know, and eventually, it was just drawing on piece of paper. And added later on, you know, coming up with with more interesting ideas, of course, but it always fascinated me this this, if you can call the field, this field of invention, the brilliant idea that also afterwards, the brilliant implementation of that idea can really change. So so many things, which which have it can have a huge impact. So definitely, I think that's, that's a huge part and the adults very inspiring part because you don't know what's yet to come.
Jared Simmons 12:48
Right now. Definitely. I think the invention piece, as you talked about the circular economy and going from linear to circular, I think there will be some invention required. And this is just my layman's opinion, I think there will be some invention required. I also think that there can be sort of an over reliance on invention, because as you mentioned earlier, there's a lot of things from other domains that can be brought in quickly and easily to sort of help solve the problem. There's multi solving concept. I like it because it leaves room for invention, which is innovative, but also new applications of existing things, which which can also be innovative. Yeah,
Noah Schaul 13:26
absolutely. And I think that would be something I think we should as, as an economy push a lot more. I think we can learn so much from from from natural concepts and systems, that that, you know, like, I think it's the fifth field called biomimicry, if I remember correctly, that were you. Well, that's really copying, natural natural mechanics assistance,
Jared Simmons 13:47
right, like the gecko, I think the gecko tongue, maybe someone is sort of created an artificial version of that sort of thing.
Noah Schaul 13:55
Yeah, exactly. And also, then the materials that you can use from from it that are sometimes stronger and better and more efficient than what we are currently using. And afterwards, can can just easily flow again into nature. So yeah, I think those are really important elements. And you can, of course, apply this to all different sectors where thinker, new new inventions can have tremendous effects. What about also my, one of my my colleagues, and managers, oftentimes says, Let's not always reinvent the wheel.
Jared Simmons 14:24
Yeah, exactly. It's
Noah Schaul 14:26
finding a balance. And and I like to point about relying too much inventions because it's, it's a very good excuse to say, well, in the future, we'll invent ourselves out of our problems, which, you know, it makes life of course, very, very easy. But first of all, I think it hinders innovation and inventions, just saying that. And second of all, I think it requires permanent and continuous improvements in the parallel direction that we need to really to follow up to to get somewhere successful, just allowing for the rebound effect, right. So if you invent something and improves, brings a lot of improvements, but then Through those improvements, it creates a lot, again, a lot more activity and traction, and then you maybe are better back at the same point or even worse things, depending on your perspective. So only allowed for the rebound effect already of inventions. I think we need to, to also record communism improvements have never tried to rely on future inventions that we don't have yet.
Jared Simmons 15:22
Yeah, that's that's, that's well said. I think innovation, like I said, I think it has room for both. And I love the way you, you positioned it there. And invention is kind of the cool, fun, interesting, sexy piece that gets people prizes and all sorts of things. I often wonder if there should be a Nobel Prize for re application, you know what I mean? That's brilliant. These domains are so siloed. And people continue to get rewarded through the highest levels for their solutions in these silos. There's a prize for this a prize for that prize for mathematics, all those other things, but I think there's there's probably an opportunity for us to be more rewarding have cross domain re applications that deliver unique solutions. No invention required.
Noah Schaul 16:06
Yeah, yeah, I'd second. And if anywhere, they will have to call it reapplication in our price. If anywhere they will allowance probably COVID. Scandinavia. So yeah. David just pitched idea.
Jared Simmons 16:19
Yes, there we go. Yeah, I've got I've got one signature on my petition. All right. I love the way you think about the circular versus linear economy. One thing that has always sort of complicated that model for me is the fact that we are moving from national and regional economies to a global economy. So as we're making that transition from like, you know, a North American economy, a European economy, an Asian economy to a truly global economy, that definition of circular kind of almost becomes almost a third dimension in the whole picture. Because if my global economy moves goods and services and parts all around the world as part of it, is there room in that model for, you know, kind of this global viewpoint? Yeah, it's
Noah Schaul 17:08
a good point. I've seen also like terms like globalization, so yeah. Brilliant, really lovely. Because I don't know, I think that's the shortest answer, because that remains to be seen, I think, the better this this system will it will take it and whether there will be this globalization where you can combine both worlds probably, but I think that there must be room to some extent for that. I don't think we can go back to a purely local world. I think we are too many people. We have too many cities, there's just the demand scales became became too wide. Yeah, it's almost like we got locked in in a certain way. It's like a compared sometimes to the agricultural revolution, where after a few generations, and even if you had the and brilliant mind come up and say, Hey, we this is not working out for whatever reasons. Yeah, let's try to go back to my Nomad lifestyle. Right. Yeah, would have wouldn't have been possible. And I see ourselves in a similar situation right now. But I do think that globalization has an will have all sorts of advantages from from circular economy. If you look at, for example, companies right now that struggle with supply and resilience issues, because they were going to global and to, to complex supply chains, getting local supply lines and local activities, build up local synergies can actually further improve the decades. Yeah, so perfect, circular circularity. And local activity can really come very well into play for globally acting companies and organizations. But yeah, that would be definitely one one element. Yeah.
Jared Simmons 18:49
Yeah, no, I like that a lot. As you're describing it, and I must imagine, almost a network of circles. Yeah. You know what I mean, instead of trying to make the entire world circular.
Noah Schaul 19:00
Yeah. And also, yeah, no, no, thanks. My point came back that I would circular. In a sense, global economy also provides more options for matching resources, which is a big problem right now, if you have 20, or 20 would be is still small scale, but no matter what number of trucks filled with one and the same resource, in the past, they have still been put to landfills. Because where, where can you match them to the right, buyer, right and, and then levels that's for example, access until exchange, which basically provide a dating platform for for materials and the more global that those platforms become, the more you can really link and match those different risks that demand and supply of secondary resources, making that more efficient and allowing the the circles to become also more competitive and more efficient in that sense, and does not have only every 10th secondary load. Finally, find the buyer enter into one neither
Jared Simmons 20:00
Right,
Noah Schaul 20:00
but make it possible that every secondary source some extent finds in, for instance, the next person who can get value out of it. Just a few ideas, I think where, where a circular can come off as soft stay within our, or vocabulary.
Jared Simmons 20:14
Yeah. I like it a lot. I mean, it's just such a simple model for a complex concept. That's why I like the circular economy sort of framework, because it's very easy, especially in the world of innovation. And in value chain work, people build complex models for these complex concepts. And when you have a complex model, you know, you have to spend time just understanding the model, you know, Lean Six Sigma, you know, you're going through all these trainings for all these things just to learn the process. And you haven't really started working on the problem yet. And so that's why I love this circular economy concept is because I have the visual, the butterfly visual is great, that's in my head. And I can start talking about the problem. And getting right to the challenge. And I think the globalization of this global economy. And you know, just what you said the opportunity to sort of, you know, match these things and create markets that that are more efficient, for, you know, the secondary things, I think that's a, that's an easy thing to wrap my head around as you're talking about a circular economy. So I really love that it's a very complex concept, you know, getting things that are mined in Madagascar to, you know, Brazil, it's a complex thing, but the concept of, Okay, well, there's too much of this here, and not enough of this. There. That's an easy thing to start to start a conversation around. Yeah. So I really love the elegance of the model. Do you have any sort of advice for innovators or people who are who consider themselves innovators and want to be thoughtful in this space?
Noah Schaul 21:55
Yeah, from what I've already mentioned, to some extent, is trying to get more inspired by what nature has to offer all the tricks and concepts and structures, it's kept impressive to me, the more you read about it, right, the more the more ideas that come by just looking at it. Yeah, I think that we definitely want to then also get a personal level also, I think. And I've seen that, not enough at the moment, especially as lead increases meant and also negative, especially negative feedback, actually, shuffling enabled people to let them criticize us and give negative feedback. Because in the end, that's more or less, at a personal level, the one of the main conditions for innovation, I think. So being open to that, don't be too critical of yourself as well. Because otherwise it will, you know, you're yourself, credit for stress and stuff like that. But it can be such a powerful resource, I think. And if you're able to, first of all, allow it, but then also don't take yourself too serious too. So that people are actually willing and comfortable with giving you feedback. And I think you can really, that will help you innovate yourself and reinvent yourself all the time, basically. And that's very powerful, and quite quite a beautiful thing to think about. And why I said that, that are missing at some time at the moment is the current situation around surrounding COVID-19. what frustrates me almost the most of the whole situation is that there's, there's almost no middle ground at the moment, there's only two worlds and and as soon as you have some mild statement in either one or the other direction as as more as much as you can be as much in the middle as much as you want, you immediately get pushed into one direction. And then and and that's, it's that's on a personal level anymore. Right? But it's at a global level. But I think it's it's, it's it's the same situation because people don't allow criticism, because they take it personal as well. So yeah, being aware of confirmation biases, and being aware of how powerful feedback and criticism can be, is at a personal and societal level, I think, a very important element that we need to be aware of at all times. That will be my second advice.
Jared Simmons 24:06
That's great. I'm a I'm gonna take that advice, and I'm trying to apply it myself. I love that. I also love that your definition of innovation not only applies to systems, processes, business models, but as you shared in your advice, it applies to individuals and society, which I think is really important. Again, I love models that are flexible and replicable. So thank you for that. I really appreciate you sharing those thoughts. Any anything else you'd like to share with us?
Noah Schaul 24:34
Yeah, I guess I guess with to also briefly dive into the topic that is really one of my hotel, the hot topic now. Like, close to my heart. Oh, yeah. My heart is also innovating education, which is also a big part of what we're doing. Here here at my company in the Netherlands in change my company, the company I work for,
Jared Simmons 24:58
you should feel a sense of ownership.
Noah Schaul 25:03
So what what what we do a lot is actually trying to bring innovation, and in ideas and inspiration within the field of education and learning, and training and those fields, which I think is very important that that's really something also we hire, which which shaped myself, like always trying to, you know, already as, as a student that later on as a professional is trying to question the, the existing structures and the thing that we have in our education system, that's very, I mean, again, we've come a very long way. And it's amazing what we were able to teach people, right. But it's, we sometimes say here, that it's too much about teaching and too little about learning.
Jared Simmons 25:44
That's great. I love that. Yeah,
Noah Schaul 25:46
it's creating the right atmosphere if people want to learn and create using different approaches, and not only theory and and also, sometimes the amount of things that we expect from people, you know, they're just learning to and try out, which they will probably remember for the rest of their life and the theory of 90% of the theory they might forget, that's just a few thoughts that I wanted to also raise. Because I think that's really a field where I think we can improve a lot, especially in the field of economics and business where I have a background from, you know, on the one hand, coming up with new topics. So that's more than I guess, the invention field inventing new curricula, right? Around modern topics, sustainable business beat social entrepreneurship or, or circular economy, you have an open curriculum, and under a handle to that approach. So we're working a lot with, you know, learning by people, you can ask them 10 2030 years after they have played any import game or event series game, they will remember, which is truly truly amazing sometimes, and it oftentimes energizes people right. I remember very vividly when I joined in change I in my first project was going around around Europe to to market our new business simulation to serve as a simulation developer. And just seeing how new people come in the morning arrive at to training for which is the full day, you know, they have other things to do they have other obligations, they might be stressing, they have no clue what to expect reason they are with different people in the room, they have no clue who they are. And then you know, seeing them go from initial frustration, because the simulation is so new to them, and they don't know where to find stuff and what things mean, you know, circular economy will start might even be always their domain coms concept. Yeah. And then going from frustration towards you know, some good then curiosity and enthusiasm. A few pure enthusiasts enjoy when they crack the knots in the end. That's, that's really brilliant. I'm copying the other elected journey explained to them, if they see no initial frustration, right curiosity and enthusiasm that then a colleague of mine once explained button, I think that's really brilliant. And and it leaves people with more energy at the end have a full day of work and socializing and new topics, but they live with energy. And I think those techniques, that approach, I really call on every learning development manager and every professor to bring in more of those innovative approaches and topics into into the curricula and programs that we that we have out there for people to to learn in the most impactful and fun way possible.
Jared Simmons 28:27
I couldn't agree more couldn't agree more. You can hear the enthusiasm and the energy in your voice as you describe kind of witnessing this and the passion you have for education is so critical. And the distinction of learning versus teaching is is is an important one, because this is part of what I was taking away from what you said. But I think as a society, we've somehow equated the education system with learning, the only way you can learn is by being taught in a classroom where you receive this degree, a master's in ABC or PhD in XYZ or what have you. And I always think back to a quote from Mark Twain where he said he never let his schooling interfere with his education. There's just so many ways to learn things. And most of them when you take a step back from the traditional education system, which does great things, when you take a step back from that and look at the other ways people learn. They're almost all experiential. Yeah. You know, I'm a musician. You know, I learned to play the piano by playing the piano learn to sing by singing, you know, those environments. You learn the theory along the way, but it's in the context of what you're doing. And I think what you're describing the simulation driven, that sort of, you know, bringing the knowledge and the experience together at the moment of need to create that frustration and curiosity that will drive the enthusiasm. Yeah. I think a lot of what you learn in school in a curriculum is people approach it For me, okay, this is the next thing I need to do to get my degree. Yeah, when people have a problem, or companies have a problem, and you bring the solution wrapped in a an experiential model, I think you know that that passion that that gets me excited to think about that, that you guys are bringing you all are bringing that to companies and universities to augment their, you know, the curriculum or their standard sort of training programs internally. So I I'm glad you brought that up. Because it I agree. That's a that is much needed in in the world. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. I think you're on the same page. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that is what I call violent agreement. I like how you're adding words to our vocabulary today. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I've got the one language but you know, I'm trying to add more words to that one. Well, it's been such an enjoyable time. No, I really appreciate you making the time, you know, in Europe interview day, to, to chat with me and to share some thoughts with our listeners. And it's been educational and inspiring, and I really appreciate you making the time. Thanks, Joe. great pleasure. And again, thanks a lot for having me. Yeah, have a great day. All right. Take care.
Jared Simmons 31:26
We'd love to hear your thoughts about this week's show. You can drop us a line on Twitter at OUTLAST LLC, or follow us on LinkedIn where we're OUTLAST Consulting. Until next time, keep innovating. Whatever that means.